Transcript
[0:02] [Applause]
[0:03] [Music]
[0:14] what we do tonight is I'm going to speak
[0:17] some joseph´s going to lead us in a
[0:20] guided meditation and then we're each
[0:23] going to be with you in
[0:26] question-and-answer and dialogue and
[0:27] even if you address a question to one of
[0:30] us that may be that the other one of us
[0:32] chimes in as well and when Joseph
[0:39] proposed this particular design for the
[0:43] evening I thought of the long long long
[0:50] time when we were first teaching
[0:55] together at you know 1974 1975 when we
[1:02] need to come back from India and I was
[1:05] too petrified to give a public talk and
[1:10] if any of you have ever been to one of
[1:14] our retreats the intensive retreats
[1:16] which was the only forum we were
[1:19] teaching it in those days you know that
[1:22] the schedule is such that there's like
[1:28] guidance and questions and answers in
[1:30] the morning and you basically do your
[1:34] practice throughout the day and his
[1:38] meetings with teachers and things like
[1:40] that but the the big event of the day so
[1:43] I sure the meals is a lecture at night
[1:46] it's a talk at night and I couldn't do
[1:49] it
[1:49] so the first retreat we ever taught in
[1:52] this country was a month-long retreat
[1:55] and I couldn't give a talk I couldn't
[1:57] bring myself to do it as I was just too
[1:59] scared and Joseph had to give all the
[2:02] talk and quite a number of feminists
[2:09] were coming up and yelling at him
[2:11] and saying why won't you let her give a
[2:15] talk why wouldn't you let her have a
[2:17] voice and he would say I'd be so
[2:21] delighted if she'd only give a talk she
[2:23] won't do it talk to her I couldn't do it
[2:26] I mean it was just petrified and then
[2:31] sometime later and it was quite a few
[2:33] months later it struck me you know I
[2:36] could give this one talk on meta METAR
[2:40] loving-kindness because there is a
[2:43] particular guided meditation for
[2:46] loving-kindness so if my mind goes
[2:48] completely blank I could just go into
[2:52] the guided meditation and maybe no one
[2:55] will notice and just as an aside I not
[2:59] too long ago I saw Pema Chodron on a
[3:01] Pema Chodron
[3:02] and I told her this story and she said
[3:04] oh the thing that used to really keep me
[3:08] from wanting to give a talk was the fear
[3:10] that my mind would go blank and I would
[3:13] start speaking again but it would be on
[3:15] a different topic and she said in all
[3:18] these years not one person has
[3:20] complained like you gave two talks in
[3:22] one or you switch topics all of a sudden
[3:25] anyway back to me so I thought you know
[3:28] I could give a loving-kindness talk
[3:30] because let's just go into the guided
[3:32] meditation and no one will think that
[3:34] was weird or anything so at home and
[3:37] very I have piles and piles and piles of
[3:40] cassettes because there are tapes right
[3:42] in those days of me basically giving one
[3:45] talk the only talk I could give which
[3:47] was on loving-kindness and then one day
[3:50] it suddenly struck me wow they're kind
[3:56] of all loving-kindness talks because
[3:58] that's what it's about it's just about
[4:00] connecting with people it's not about
[4:03] really trying to impart your expertise
[4:06] or anything like that they're all
[4:08] loving-kindness talks and that was the
[4:12] day I could begin to actually give talks
[4:14] and as interesting this came out some
[4:18] friends after my book real happiness at
[4:20] work came out we were having
[4:21] a friends gave me this lovely little
[4:24] dinner party and the topic around the
[4:28] table was what was your happiest moment
[4:30] work and I talked about that moment
[4:32] where I kind of broke through what was
[4:35] really a self-imposed sense of
[4:37] limitation there was no ultimate reality
[4:40] to it and I could see through the fear
[4:45] into something that would really bring
[4:49] me to kind of steadiness of caring of of
[4:53] openness and connection and so I told
[4:57] that story and then we went around the
[4:58] table and Joseph said rose Joseph's
[5:01] Chinese said his happiest moment at work
[5:04] was when I finally started giving talk
[5:06] because he could have a night off and I
[5:10] thought oh here we are
[5:11] like I'm giving this up isn't that
[5:14] interesting
[5:15] forty years later but I think about that
[5:21] kind of moment we all have those moments
[5:23] don't we where we have a feeling maybe
[5:28] we've existed in a darkened closed room
[5:32] and suddenly the door opens and maybe we
[5:37] don't know really what's outside for
[5:42] sure but we know it's something bigger
[5:45] something maybe we could not even have
[5:48] imagined when we were just within the
[5:51] confines of that other space or we have
[5:55] a time when we're kind of lost in our
[5:58] own self preoccupation we meet somebody
[6:02] who's this beautiful quotation in a
[6:05] Chinese tradition which says under the
[6:10] cherry blossoms shade is no such thing
[6:12] as a stranger and as Ali Lama himself
[6:17] has said I've never met anyone I
[6:20] consider a stranger I've never met
[6:23] anyone I consider a stranger and you
[6:25] think about that if you think about how
[6:28] we might more normally meet somebody
[6:31] and it's like we hardly even notice them
[6:35] it's really all what about me
[6:40] do you like me do you like me more than
[6:43] you've ever liked anybody before or no
[6:47] is this something stupid you hate me I'm
[6:49] out of here
[6:49] this is unworkable and I think one of
[6:56] our great mistaken kinds of conditioning
[6:59] is to confuse self preoccupation with
[7:02] genuine love for ourselves and we are so
[7:06] lonely as we don't even notice others
[7:09] and we just live within the the confines
[7:12] of this kind of assumption and then we
[7:14] have these moments for one reason or
[7:18] another where we can let go of that and
[7:22] and we much more truly connect and it's
[7:27] so beautiful so one of the things I
[7:30] think that actually drew me to exploring
[7:35] the Buddhist tradition the most profound
[7:37] thing was the methodology of meditation
[7:41] for which one clearly you know does not
[7:45] have to become a Buddhist in any way or
[7:49] adopt a belief system or a dogma but
[7:54] even beyond that I think one of the
[7:56] things that Jimmy was his message about
[8:00] the capacity of the human heart about
[8:04] the potential of a human being in all
[8:07] the descriptions of the Buddha he's
[8:10] always talked about as having been a
[8:11] human being who had some very human
[8:15] questions about life basically what does
[8:20] it mean to be born in this human body to
[8:22] be an infant to be so helpless and so
[8:26] vulnerable to the actions of those
[8:27] around you and to grow up and to get
[8:31] sick to get older to die whether you
[8:34] want that or not and is there a quality
[8:37] of happiness
[8:39] that can sustain even as the body does
[8:43] its thing outside of our control and
[8:47] what does it mean to have a human mind
[8:49] with the kind of emotional cascade we go
[8:53] through so we might wake up in the
[8:55] morning and we're afraid and then we're
[8:56] full of faith and we're happy we're sad
[8:59] round and round without seeming to have
[9:01] the ability successfully to say I
[9:04] thought about it long you know I thought
[9:06] about it really deeply and I'm never
[9:09] going to be afraid again or I've grieved
[9:12] long enough it's over or I'm never going
[9:15] to fall asleep meditating again you know
[9:18] it's not to say we can't affect the
[9:20] conditions that cause something to arise
[9:23] clearly we can but to control them to
[9:27] insist to be able to dominate it's just
[9:30] not going to happen and so the question
[9:34] is is there a quality of happiness and
[9:37] Curly needs to be a very special kind of
[9:39] happiness it's not just having a good
[9:41] time right is there a kind of happiness
[9:44] that can be there can sustain that won't
[9:47] be broken as our minds go through all of
[9:51] these changes and our hearts go through
[9:53] all of these changes so it's said that
[9:56] any answers the Buddha came to he came
[9:58] to through the power is own awareness
[10:00] and so can we whatever our questions are
[10:04] about the deeper nature of life we have
[10:08] that capacity and so it's taught that
[10:11] whatever your personal history whatever
[10:14] your story whatever you have gone
[10:18] through whatever you may yet go through
[10:20] there is a capacity within everybody
[10:24] that can never ever be broken it may be
[10:27] and it usually is covered over and the
[10:31] sky's hard to find and often very hard
[10:35] to trust and I think those fits are
[10:36] going to be free right up here so people
[10:39] can just be seated there instead of
[10:41] being squeezed in and then we have the
[10:45] upper realm with there too which is kind
[10:47] Singh okay so so I found that
[10:51] breathtaking the thought that if you
[10:54] look deeply enough inside you would
[10:58] discover this potential this capacity
[11:02] this ability to understand your life to
[11:07] have wisdom to love to connect to be
[11:11] free a very different worldview than
[11:14] many praise like if you really know who
[11:18] you were be big trouble
[11:20] so it's on the basis of that sense of a
[11:24] capacity as an ordinary human being that
[11:27] we practice because it makes no sense to
[11:32] think about trying to make something
[11:33] from nothing I mean there's futility
[11:37] right but it's because it is said we
[11:40] have that potential that we practice we
[11:45] grow we change we transform and I just
[11:49] felt what a massively inclusive vision
[11:53] of a human being it's like you don't
[11:55] have to do preparatory work to have the
[11:58] capacity you don't have to be absolved
[12:03] to have that capacity you don't have to
[12:07] do something to deserve it that's
[12:10] special
[12:11] it's simply by existing no matter who
[12:15] you are no matter what you may have done
[12:17] so that was a tremendous tremendous
[12:21] impetus for me and inspiration for me to
[12:25] to really see what might might exist
[12:28] there so the word of meditation that we
[12:32] use of course so much in the Pali
[12:37] language language of the original
[12:38] Buddhist texts is Bhavana BH a VA na and
[12:45] the common translation of it is
[12:49] cultivation so it's like we cultivate
[12:53] the ground so that the quality is we
[12:57] want the clarity awareness love can
[13:00] emerge
[13:01] and Spratt and tradition is also it is
[13:05] this really cute phrase that is used
[13:08] sometimes to translate whatever word
[13:11] they have that we usually translate as
[13:14] meditation and the phrase is getting
[13:18] used to it getting familiar with it
[13:22] getting used to it so of course that
[13:25] brings up the question what in the world
[13:27] is it letting go of self-imposed
[13:31] limitations of seeing clearly of
[13:34] connecting deeply deeply with others of
[13:38] seeing the manufactured nature of our
[13:42] fear or our bias seeing right through it
[13:46] we've had these moments each of us
[13:49] sometimes through tremendous suffering
[13:52] sometimes through inspiration through
[13:55] love
[13:56] however it's come but we don't tend to
[14:00] be awfully used to them we don't tend to
[14:03] live there so from that definition from
[14:07] that point of view we practice
[14:10] meditation to make a home in the deepest
[14:14] places we have already known it's not so
[14:17] unknown is that's so kind of impossible
[14:20] to imagine as an experience it's not so
[14:23] abstract a four-way we've been there but
[14:28] rather fleeting we usually we have some
[14:30] kind of important experience like that
[14:33] and it just comes and it goes and it's
[14:36] gone and we think what was that
[14:40] I don't think I'll tell anyone about
[14:43] that or I think I'll tell everyone about
[14:46] that or I don't know how to get back
[14:50] there right somebody told me she choose
[14:59] beginning meditation and she I think I
[15:01] think the first sitting she had some
[15:06] really lovely peaceful wonderful
[15:10] experience
[15:12] and then she has the thought something
[15:14] like I think I'm in trouble
[15:16] and I said yeah because of course she
[15:18] doesn't spends a long time but how do I
[15:20] get it back that I get fact with some
[15:23] ferocity and she suffered you know so to
[15:27] learn how to make a home in the deepest
[15:30] places we have already known that's a
[15:33] pretty beautiful way to think of
[15:35] practice right rather than I'm like the
[15:38] worst meditator that ever lived and I
[15:40] can barely believe I will ever ever ever
[15:42] have a single moment of anything
[15:45] resembling mindfulness whatever that
[15:47] means
[15:49] so it's a very different kind of feeling
[15:53] tone and and sense of joy and
[15:56] exploration and confidence and as as we
[16:00] go forward I think of meditation
[16:04] practice largely as a kind of skills
[16:07] training and is training and I was I was
[16:15] landed in London and went right to see
[16:17] friends in the theater and to get to the
[16:20] bathroom or to leave which I desperately
[16:22] need to do because I was falling asleep
[16:24] you had to sort of go all the way down
[16:25] the aisle practically onto the stage and
[16:28] then leave which was really hard to hang
[16:32] in there actual intermission so Bravo
[16:33] all you people going bathroom so I
[16:39] largely think of meditation as a skills
[16:42] training it's almost like the skills we
[16:45] need to come home to abide in those
[16:48] places so it really doesn't have to be
[16:51] tied to a belief system or particular
[16:54] kind of language or or way of being but
[16:58] we do need to have some trust in a
[17:04] little bit of trust in the capacity of
[17:06] our own being even as we get frustrated
[17:11] or or just made or feel like nothing is
[17:14] happening and over 45 years I feel like
[17:19] I've been through a lot of those periods
[17:22] my very very
[17:24] it's story which maybe I'll close with
[17:25] suggest we can lead us in meditation
[17:28] about IMS in a way and of course there
[17:31] are many and this is like nostalgia time
[17:33] so we're just telling stories remember
[17:35] when we first moved in and they were
[17:39] pews everywhere and remember when you
[17:43] know there's no arch and remember when
[17:47] instead of saying meta MH TTA above the
[17:50] doorway said father's with the Blessed
[17:52] Sacrament initiative um
[17:57] so but one of my favorite amongst of the
[18:00] many stories is within the first month
[18:07] we received two letters that were
[18:10] remarkable for how they were addressed
[18:11] the first instead of being addressed to
[18:15] the Insight Meditation Society was
[18:18] addressed to the instant meditation
[18:21] society and I love that you know I
[18:24] thought wow isn't that typical of what
[18:28] we think that we need instant
[18:31] gratification has to happen right away
[18:33] or it's worthless and the second which
[18:37] is so much my favorite instead of being
[18:41] addressed to the Insight Meditation
[18:43] Society was addressed to the hindsight
[18:47] meditation I love that and everyone here
[18:54] from IMS oh there are a few people here
[18:56] and know that those that you know every
[18:59] kind of big anniversary season if we
[19:02] talk about like t-shirts and mugs and
[19:05] things like that I always put in a plug
[19:08] for the hindsight meditation society
[19:11] which no one has wanted to do I don't
[19:17] even know are we having t-shirts this
[19:19] year we are oh I was told no see they
[19:24] try to keep things for me so uh uh okay
[19:28] just so you know I really like behind
[19:31] site meditation side
[19:33] because I really feel you know sincerely
[19:36] like I have put in so many hours
[19:39] practicing so so many hours in my own
[19:41] spiritual life feeling nothing was
[19:44] happening only for me to look back later
[19:47] in hindsight and say look at that
[19:49] something was happening or even that
[19:53] really hurt but that in a way I could
[19:57] never have imagined was kind of
[19:59] preparing me for what came next and so
[20:03] many times in my life of trying to make
[20:08] a difference or be of service in the
[20:10] world where I felt like is it going
[20:12] nowhere
[20:13] only when I'm lucky I feel like I can
[20:16] look back and say look at that that
[20:19] actually planted a seed at the time I
[20:23] never could have told it was having a
[20:25] result but look at that it really did
[20:30] set something in motion that maybe took
[20:32] a longer time or took in different
[20:35] directions somewhat than I had imagined
[20:37] but if I had not done that maybe nothing
[20:40] would have come to pass
[20:42] so I think that the hindsight meditation
[20:47] society really is a tremendous sign of
[20:52] wisdom and since so funny because in the
[20:56] 40 years since then since we opened
[21:01] we're only as far as I know maybe it's
[21:03] cuz nobody those letters anymore but as
[21:05] far as I know we've only gotten one
[21:08] envelope that had kind of a weird
[21:11] address on it which was instead of being
[21:14] addressed to the Insight Meditation
[21:16] Society was addressed to the Insight
[21:19] Meditation Society like insight
[21:22] revolution or insight something so that
[21:25] was kind of fun but I think with the
[21:29] wisdom of the hindsight meditation
[21:31] society and some kind of faith or a
[21:35] sense of trust in that capacity that we
[21:38] really have have the possibility of
[21:40] really a lifetime of a path or
[21:44] all questions have dissolved into that
[21:47] open empty space but if any how still
[21:53] remaining
[21:54] Shannon I would be glad to there's going
[21:59] to be a mic is coming to you I think
[22:07] thank you so is there a difference
[22:14] between consciousness and awareness and
[22:18] if you are ever fortunate enough to be
[22:22] in either of those states are you aware
[22:25] or conscious that you're conscious or
[22:27] aware yet the question was is there a
[22:40] difference between awareness and
[22:42] consciousness and if you're fortunate
[22:44] enough to be in either one of them do
[22:46] you know you're aware or conscious
[22:48] that's basically yeah so one of the
[22:53] problems in talking about this is that
[22:57] in English the English words are not as
[23:02] precise as the words for example in the
[23:06] Buddhist texts of the pali language or
[23:08] web science go to tibetan we use the
[23:11] word awareness in english and
[23:14] consciousness to cover a wide range of
[23:19] meanings and that's why i can get
[23:22] confusing generally we talk of
[23:26] consciousness as as the bear knowing
[23:30] faculty just knowing a saya to found the
[23:33] smell there need not be any particular
[23:36] mindfulness associated with that so the
[23:40] example I use for example I talk about
[23:44] black lab consciousness so you know the
[23:47] dogs black lab fun dogs and the play :
[23:52] well when you watch them
[23:55] they're conscious they're not
[23:56] unconscious they're conscious of the
[23:59] smells and the sights and the sounds
[24:00] they don't look very mindful
[24:04] so there's not awareness in the sense of
[24:08] mindfulness but if you're using
[24:13] awareness to mean are they conscious yes
[24:16] they're conscious but without that
[24:19] component of mindfulness which we
[24:21] usually include when we use the word
[24:26] awareness so in that sense that's the
[24:30] sense those two are different it's very
[24:34] possible to be in that black black lab
[24:36] consciousness and not know it's good
[24:40] really can be a completely diluted State
[24:42] we were just caught up in what's
[24:45] happening when there's mindfulness or
[24:49] awareness associated with the
[24:51] consciousness then we are knowing that
[24:55] we are aware so I hope that helped to
[24:58] clarify a little but it can be confusing
[25:00] the words in English as I said cover a
[25:02] wide range of different meanings so
[25:08] they're bringing in like spring your
[25:11] microphone okay I'm going to be greedy
[25:14] and have two questions one I'm kind of
[25:18] new to this so is there a difference
[25:21] between Insight Meditation trans mental
[25:24] Transcendental Meditation and any other
[25:27] kind of meditation is that one of two
[25:31] what was wrong so the first question was
[25:35] is there difference between Insight
[25:38] Meditation Transcendental Meditation and
[25:41] then the other kind of meditation from
[25:45] the point of view of Insight Meditation
[25:48] they say yes in that you even within
[25:53] Insight Meditation what kind of a larger
[25:56] category you might devote time to most
[26:00] particularly deepening
[26:03] the quality of concentration that's a
[26:07] kind of stability of attention and
[26:09] steadiness of attention and classically
[26:12] that's done by choosing an object of
[26:14] awareness resting our attention on that
[26:17] object and coming back to seventy
[26:20] billion times per session that our
[26:22] attention wanders so the
[26:28] transformational moment in that type of
[26:31] technique is letting go of whatever is
[26:34] not that object it could be the most
[26:37] beautiful thought in the world the most
[26:40] dreadful thought in the world it's just
[26:42] not that object right so you just let go
[26:44] and come back and let go and come back
[26:46] so over time you build this kind of
[26:49] strength and steadiness and centeredness
[26:52] of mind and some extraordinary access to
[26:56] much deeper states of consciousness
[26:59] because you've gathered a lot of energy
[27:02] that is normally wasted so what that
[27:04] central object is could be anything so
[27:07] even within say Buddha's teaching could
[27:09] be a mantra could be a sound could be an
[27:11] image could be something happening in
[27:13] your body could be a prayer could be
[27:15] loving kindness very commonly at least
[27:20] for part of your practice that object
[27:22] that centering object will be the breath
[27:27] for a number of reasons as my early
[27:29] teachers would say first of all you
[27:31] don't have to believe anything in order
[27:32] to feel your breath you don't have to
[27:34] close with a Buddhist or Hindu or reject
[27:37] anything else if you're breathing you
[27:38] can be meditating and then as one said I
[27:41] was felt very charmingly he said the
[27:43] breath is very portable you know so if
[27:46] you practice take ten minutes a day in a
[27:48] formal dedicated way using the breath as
[27:51] the means to get back to yourself and
[27:54] back to the moment then you're at work
[27:56] and it's crazy and the pressures are on
[27:59] and people are getting anxious and it's
[28:01] just this frantic pace you don't have to
[28:04] like open up the closet door and pull
[28:07] out all this equipment and sit down of
[28:08] course I couldn't look weird right with
[28:10] your Gong and everything
[28:11] you know it's like you're breathing
[28:14] nobody even has to know you're doing it
[28:16] right but so all of that would fall into
[28:18] from the point of view of Buddha's
[28:22] teaching or Insight Meditation all that
[28:23] falls under concentration then there are
[28:27] ways of practicing where we build on
[28:32] that concentration so that we then apply
[28:34] a quality of open awareness or non it's
[28:41] kind of awareness without a lot of
[28:43] filters holding on pushing away stuff
[28:45] like that so what's happening in our
[28:48] body so it's not just one object anymore
[28:50] you know it's the body it's emotions and
[28:52] thoughts whatever arises and until it
[28:55] becomes a way of having a different kind
[29:00] of awareness of everything that happens
[29:03] for us and the muscle of that the engine
[29:07] of that kind of practice is mindfulness
[29:09] so you know any mindfulness practice
[29:12] ultimately is supposed to be about
[29:13] insight so it's not just about
[29:15] collecting that energy but utilizing
[29:19] that collective energy as a way of
[29:21] seeing more clearly everything we're
[29:23] going to so from that point of view
[29:25] that's a distinction they would make so
[29:27] when you speak of an object you are not
[29:29] speaking of gazing at a candle or an
[29:31] apple or it could be that it could be it
[29:34] could be any object yes okay second
[29:37] question is could you please address the
[29:40] idea of chronic pain and how
[29:43] debilitating that is and how to kind of
[29:47] use mindfulness to get around it all
[29:52] right yeah I mean that would be that
[29:56] would be an example of the question was
[29:59] about chronic pain and how debilitating
[30:01] it can be and using mindfulness as a way
[30:04] of getting around it that would be an
[30:06] example of paying attention to something
[30:12] other than just the breath or something
[30:16] you know but using that kind of
[30:19] awareness towards something that's very
[30:21] compelling that's really capturing your
[30:24] attention
[30:24] so the first thing we say well first
[30:26] thing I would say is that it's not easy
[30:28] you know so I think that's a given and
[30:31] you have to be kind of forgiving for
[30:34] yourself and not have the instant
[30:38] mindset you know going west because it's
[30:42] not easy but it's possible to make a
[30:44] difference even research is showing that
[30:51] there was an experiment that was done in
[30:53] Richie Davidson's lab in Madison
[30:56] Wisconsin where somehow he got
[31:00] permission to induce pain physical pain
[31:03] people we also used physical pain as a
[31:06] kind of template to more deeply
[31:09] understand emotional pain and heartache
[31:11] and so on but he got permission to
[31:14] induce physical pain in people and they
[31:17] had a group of meditators and a group of
[31:18] non-meditators and what he found was
[31:21] that the meditators and the
[31:24] non-meditators pretty well responded the
[31:27] same way to pain but as soon as the pain
[31:30] was withdrawn the non-meditators root
[31:34] end to flip into a cycle of anticipation
[31:37] when's it coming back how bad is it
[31:39] going to be maybe it'll be even worse so
[31:42] whatever got like heightened and
[31:43] whatever in their brains because they're
[31:46] an fMRI never receded so there was never
[31:50] a period of repose right whereas the
[31:53] meditators would have whatever reaction
[31:54] to painters regime in beans and it hurts
[31:57] and then the pain went away they could
[32:00] let go and be with what was so I thought
[32:04] that was so interesting both in what we
[32:09] can expect of ourselves and not having
[32:11] unreasonable expectations but also it's
[32:13] not so much the pain is the extra pain
[32:15] like what might we be doing just before
[32:18] sore habit that's making it actually
[32:21] worse anticipating the future feeling
[32:25] isolated blaming ourselves feeling
[32:28] ashamed and whatever it might be that we
[32:30] add on so the first thing we say mindful
[32:33] practice really look for the add-on
[32:35] you know what might again it's just
[32:39] habit it's not because they're bad
[32:41] person or something you know but just
[32:43] before some habit we tend to add on a
[32:45] lot of stuff right so that's the first
[32:48] place and then that gives us some room
[32:50] to look more directly at the pain and
[32:54] what we see this is true for any
[32:56] experience is that it's not just one
[32:58] thing it's in that case maybe it's
[33:02] moments of pressure and moments of
[33:05] burning and romance of twisting them
[33:07] none of that sounds good and none of
[33:09] that feels good
[33:10] but that's in a live system right
[33:12] there's movement in their salt like the
[33:15] solid congealed overwhelming oppressive
[33:18] pain that never moves it's alive and
[33:22] like a friend of mine with a very severe
[33:26] chronic pain condition said I found this
[33:30] space within the pain right but we can
[33:34] only do that when we're with it without
[33:36] animal-like stuff to it so that that's
[33:40] basically what we do I'll just add one
[33:44] little piece to that which type into the
[33:46] meditation revision that one of the ways
[33:50] we do solidify our sense of the
[33:53] experience is through overlaying the
[33:56] pain with a concept my head my shoulder
[34:01] my back but actually there's no
[34:04] sensation cold back there's no sensation
[34:07] cold head so we're not actually feeling
[34:10] back or feeling head a challenger said
[34:13] we're feeling pressure or tightness or
[34:15] standing whatever it is when we go from
[34:18] the level of the concept overlay to the
[34:23] direct experience that allows us then to
[34:26] to experience the pain in enjoy sharing
[34:29] expresses in a live dynamic system so
[34:32] but we're so conditioned to think in
[34:34] terms of the concept of our body you
[34:40] know and then that solidifies our
[34:42] relationship to it
[34:53] hi thank you so much
[34:55] I'm not sure how to form the question
[34:58] but they guided meditation we did I've
[35:01] never done anything like that and it
[35:04] kind of blew my mind so I just I thought
[35:08] that that the first person would talk
[35:10] about it I am not sure if the experience
[35:16] that I was having was I mean I'm not
[35:19] sure there's not a right or wrong but I
[35:23] just wanted to ask I didn't know if I
[35:28] was kind of going on a magical mystery
[35:33] ride if I was like but that was really I
[35:39] mean your voice was amazing and like
[35:48] just what you were saying over and over
[35:50] and there's no shape and there's no
[35:54] boundaries and nobody I mean I was there
[35:59] when you said now look at your actual
[36:02] mind you know I
[36:07] it was white snowy a little great having
[36:10] me i what were we doing I was inside I
[36:14] dunno I mean there weren't like no
[36:17] thought except one creeped in and it was
[36:19] like is this like a college yeah sure I
[36:23] don't know but and I was I went back to
[36:26] my breath a little kid to like a so I
[36:29] just wondered could you say something
[36:31] about
[36:36] this is a little hard to repeat but it
[36:41] was about her experience of the guided
[36:44] meditation and feeling a little bit like
[36:47] it was a magical mystery tour something
[36:50] or other and not even quite sure why but
[36:53] that there was some sense of boundaries
[36:55] dissolving and the space of mind being
[36:58] empty and so all that sounds great I
[37:11] guess there are a couple of a couple of
[37:14] key points about meditation in general
[37:17] about experiences like this or other
[37:20] kinds of meditative experiences and
[37:25] sharing did refer to this will have all
[37:33] kinds of experiences you know in
[37:35] practice and different forms of practice
[37:37] may lead us to different places in
[37:42] ourselves so the important thing is to
[37:46] be open to all this into the using these
[37:49] different methods but without clinging
[37:52] to any of it without clinging to any of
[37:55] it because the real essence of freedom
[37:59] the very bottom line of any practice
[38:05] leading to liberation is cultivating in
[38:10] one way or another the mind that does
[38:13] not cling and there are some famous
[38:16] Buddhist discourses where as a develop a
[38:20] mind which does not cling to anything
[38:22] and so I think it's really important to
[38:26] understand that because it is so easy
[38:30] especially as we have different
[38:33] experiences like you described and many
[38:35] many others it becomes very easy to
[38:38] become fascinated we
[38:39] experience and we either then try to
[38:43] recreate it we miss the point that
[38:48] really what we're practicing is the mind
[38:50] that's not holding on so we want to
[38:53] remind ourselves again and again even as
[38:55] we're having different experiences
[38:58] that's what the essence is the essence
[39:01] of the free mind what I felt like you
[39:08] were a great guide you know I knew there
[39:14] was a gentleman here who entertained
[39:16] them
[39:30] your many years of practice must have
[39:34] led you to develop cities or telepathic
[39:41] powers because I think you just adding
[39:45] in love what is the most important thing
[39:48] in life in life your attorney you said
[40:01] you answer largely not clinging somebody
[40:06] behind me to set in white
[40:07] no not white light but you said that the
[40:12] question was well first it was something
[40:16] about Joseph's already answered the
[40:18] question before was asked and then what
[40:21] is the most important thing in life so
[40:23] I'm taking my clue from the fact that
[40:25] Joseph had answered the question before
[40:28] it was asked so that I said say not
[40:30] clinging it was just what you said
[40:32] before
[40:33] oh you know just maybe to to open the
[40:40] conversation a bit I'm sure most of you
[40:43] know who Ron this is you know he was
[40:47] great he's a great friend and we knew
[40:50] each other years ago in the early days
[40:52] in India and I just saw him last
[40:57] December in living in Maui now and if
[41:01] many of you probably know years ago he
[41:03] had a stroke and quite quite powerful
[41:07] but he's in this amazing space you know
[41:11] of love and openness and open
[41:13] heartedness and so some friends had
[41:18] wanted her wanted to film a conversation
[41:23] between around us and myself and we're
[41:26] old old friends of many many years so
[41:29] they set up and we're sitting together
[41:31] we're having this conversation and of
[41:33] course he comes from the bhakti
[41:34] tradition the Hindu basta tradition
[41:36] and so for him the most important thing
[41:39] in life is love and it's it's really the
[41:42] language of love so we got into this
[41:48] conversation which we've been having now
[41:49] for 40 years you know and it was really
[41:52] quite fun and I was talking about a time
[42:03] after a Buddhist Christian conference
[42:05] that I had gone to and along with his
[42:08] Holiness the Dalai Lama and some
[42:10] Benedictine monks at Gethsemane Abbey in
[42:13] Kentucky and after the conference there
[42:19] were people involved in the Benedictine
[42:20] community who wanted a Buddhist
[42:25] commentary on the rule of Saint Benedict
[42:28] and says there's an actual book came out
[42:31] of it called Benedict stormer and so
[42:33] there were four of us four Buddhists who
[42:35] went through the rule you know and were
[42:38] giving a Buddhist take on this so in the
[42:40] conversations that we were having about
[42:44] that and as some of the Benedictine
[42:48] monks and maybe some of you know father
[42:51] brother david sundel lost was written
[42:54] beautifully about gratitude and devotion
[42:56] in love and he was talking i had a kind
[43:03] of no it's a little bit of an epiphany I
[43:08] was realizing that from one perspective
[43:12] the words emptiness and love mean the
[43:16] same thing you know that Buddhists use
[43:19] the word emptiness a lot in devotional
[43:23] practices these Lord love a lot but when
[43:29] you look at the experience it actually
[43:32] both has to do both have to do with you
[43:39] could say emptiness of self or
[43:41] selflessness or non separation if
[43:44] there's no self there's no other and so
[43:47] what is love other than that
[43:49] you know and so when us what is the most
[43:52] important thing in life I think there
[43:56] are many ways and many vocabularies to
[43:58] describe it and people will find the
[44:01] language that inspires themselves of
[44:03] some people it might be the language of
[44:05] love or the language of peace or the
[44:09] language of freedom or the language of
[44:12] emptiness but it's really important to
[44:15] go beyond the words and say okay what's
[44:17] what's the realization that it's at that
[44:20] informing those words actually your
[44:26] question made me think of a story I
[44:28] sometimes tell about you without ever
[44:31] mentioning your name which I still want
[44:34] but as I wrote a book called faith came
[44:39] out quite a number of years ago and in
[44:44] the book I tell the story about sitting
[44:46] with a group of people including a
[44:49] psychiatrist in New York City and we
[44:52] were having a discussion and from a
[44:56] certain vantage point looking from the
[44:59] hint and the hindsight meditation
[45:00] society point of view it was sort of a
[45:03] reductionistic conversation because the
[45:07] topic was what's the single most healing
[45:11] element in the psychotherapeutic
[45:13] relationship as though there were just
[45:16] one but anyway a nameless psychiatrist
[45:19] in New York City the group of us were
[45:22] having this conversation and he said
[45:25] it's love
[45:26] he said if you put the way it was
[45:30] phrased if you put any good
[45:31] psychotherapists up against the wall
[45:33] they'd say it was love it's the love in
[45:35] the room that's the single most healing
[45:37] element in the psychotherapeutic
[45:39] relationship and I had one of these
[45:42] experiences where you know you just hear
[45:45] these words come out of your mouth and
[45:46] what I heard come out of my mouth was
[45:48] was for all we know the single most
[45:51] healing element and the
[45:52] psychotherapeutic relationship is the
[45:54] fact that someone shows up for their
[45:56] appointment
[45:57] and I meant it you know because I was
[45:59] writing a book on faith and in a way
[46:01] that's how I was defining face like what
[46:04] gets us out of bed in the morning and
[46:06] has this willing to try and take some
[46:08] risks and believe in the possibility of
[46:11] change it's easier to stay in bed and
[46:13] show up for that appointment right so I
[46:18] put that story in the book and then the
[46:20] book came out on one of my birthday's
[46:22] and I was doing a reading and seeing
[46:27] that he was there his name was
[46:30] psychiatrist friend was there in the
[46:32] room I read that story in his honor and
[46:37] then he came up to me to get a book
[46:43] signed and he said I think you're wrong
[46:45] he said I don't think it's faith and he
[46:48] could love
[46:49] so in big letters I put his love right
[46:53] so then a good friend who's also here in
[46:56] the room gave me birthday party after
[46:59] the book reading so we're always the
[47:01] birthday party and he came back up to me
[47:04] he said you know I think you were right
[47:06] I think it is faith so I said give me
[47:09] back the book I'll refine the words are
[47:14] tricky and it's not just one thing but
[47:18] there's something to it I think both of
[47:21] obviously to the love which is this
[47:24] extraordinary ingredient in any any form
[47:28] of connection and also to our
[47:29] willingness to be there so maybe I would
[47:33] even say something about that in what
[47:35] life is about you know it's not just
[47:37] standing on the sidelines but it's kind
[47:40] of like going forward are there any
[47:44] questions from people look oh yeah
[47:47] the upper realms someone's going to come
[47:54] up with a microphone thing once you go
[48:02] upstairs and see what happens
[48:17] well Louisville waiting is anybody down
[48:20] here Sam PC I have a question about our
[48:28] panic attacks I mistresses know exactly
[48:34] what happens when you're having a panic
[48:39] attack and what you can do during the
[48:43] course of that panic attack and if you
[48:45] have any identification if that maybe
[48:48] has happened to you at some early stage
[48:50] and how you may either one of you may
[48:54] have been able to kind of practice these
[48:57] principles to learn to deal with them I
[49:06] don't really have a lie so the question
[49:10] was about panic attacks and basically
[49:15] working with them with the tools to work
[49:17] with them in the practice and whether
[49:19] we've had a personal experience of
[49:21] working with it so I haven't that I've
[49:28] worked a lot in my practice would feel
[49:30] as a very primal emotion they're deeper
[49:34] that's different then kind of the
[49:36] intensity the trigger of a panic attack
[49:41] and so what I'm going to say is very
[49:45] general and there'll be something useful
[49:49] in it or not but there's probably a lot
[49:52] is probably a very big body of knowledge
[49:55] about it which I don't have but in a
[50:01] general sort of way two things come to
[50:04] mind one is
[50:16] one of the principles in meditation
[50:20] practice and one of one of the reason
[50:25] it's called practice is that we
[50:30] gradually expand our ability to be with
[50:39] very unpleasant experiences because the
[50:43] usual conditioning with something that's
[50:47] very unpleasant so it could be pain
[50:48] physical pain it could be a strong
[50:51] emotion like fear but I work with a lot
[50:55] it could be rage it could be panic so
[50:59] there's a lot of both emotional and
[51:02] energetic things which can be very
[51:05] intense and very unpleasant what happens
[51:12] over the course of practice is that we
[51:16] develop a capacity to hold that energy
[51:20] to hold more of that energy without the
[51:24] reactivity to it you know so it's okay
[51:29] this is really intense this is really
[51:31] painful it's okay it's okay to just let
[51:35] me feel it
[51:35] just let me feel it now there'll be a we
[51:39] all will come to our limits or
[51:42] boundaries of what we can hold over time
[51:46] though and with practice what I've
[51:48] experienced is that that capacity to
[51:51] hold what can be very intense and
[51:54] painful the capacity gets larger and so
[51:58] I would say in terms of a practice
[52:01] taking in very small chunks but when a
[52:06] panic attack happens even if it's for a
[52:08] few minutes at the beginning you know to
[52:12] see if you can remind okay just let me
[52:15] feel it just let me feel it let me be
[52:17] with it you know and then maybe after a
[52:19] few minutes you get caught up in it but
[52:22] practicing in that way you might find
[52:24] that you develop that ability
[52:27] over time to hold it because it to as
[52:29] you will know is not permanent
[52:32] it's there when the conditions trigger
[52:34] it and at a certain point it goes away
[52:37] and so we just the practice itself
[52:42] develops that strength of mind over time
[52:45] in a gradual way so that's one general
[52:49] principle of what happens with
[52:51] meditation and it would be worth
[52:53] experimenting let's say even if it's
[52:55] just four minutes at a time to begin
[52:58] with the second thing which you've
[53:02] probably explored already but with
[53:06] difficult emotions one of the things
[53:09] that I find very interesting in
[53:13] meditation practice and in life is to
[53:17] see very precise as precisely as we can
[53:22] what triggers the particular response
[53:25] what triggers the emotion what triggers
[53:28] the anger what triggers the anguish what
[53:30] triggers the panic very often these
[53:35] things happen so quickly and then we're
[53:37] lost in whatever the reactivity is just
[53:43] one one brief story which may relate in
[53:47] some way this goes back years I was on
[53:51] retreat I was on a long retreat I had
[53:55] done something during the retreat that
[54:01] was very damaging to my body and there
[54:09] was a mess
[54:12] and for about six weeks
[54:18] I was just it was it was a retreat about
[54:23] anguish but I was just in a state of
[54:27] anguish about all this and what was
[54:29] feeding it was just this thought that
[54:34] kept coming to my mind
[54:36] how clever been so stupid to have done
[54:40] this thing voluntarily which had such
[54:43] disastrous consequences for the body
[54:45] that thought how could I have been so
[54:49] stupid
[54:49] was so seductive as soon as that thought
[54:56] came half an hour later I was crawling
[55:02] out of the story of it you know filled
[55:05] with this emotion of anguish and this
[55:07] has gone on for weeks and weeks at a
[55:09] time until finally it's like okay how am
[55:14] I getting so caught in this and I
[55:17] realized that I needed to be absolutely
[55:22] on top of that trigger point if I miss
[55:25] the first word of it I was gone it was
[55:29] so seductive and so believable so I just
[55:33] I set the radar out for that thought
[55:37] it's like how could I've been so stupid
[55:40] not even how did as soon as how came in
[55:44] come on I just didn't give it a moment
[55:49] airplane it took that vigilance but at
[55:54] least in that situation it was very
[55:57] effective you know because it no longer
[56:00] triggered that whole emotional reaction
[56:06] so that's just another element of how we
[56:10] can explore our minds when we get
[56:14] seduced again and again by a particular
[56:17] trigger point now panic may be more
[56:21] complicated than that you know there's a
[56:24] lot of energetic stuff going on but it's
[56:26] just an example of you know some
[56:29] possibilities of ways of working
[56:37] under 7000 okay yeah
[56:41] thanks very much so one of the issues
[56:45] that I have with Buddhism and I'm just
[56:47] wondering if you guys goes off comment
[56:50] on it is the difference between what I
[56:53] would call like practical advice
[56:56] practical guidance such as
[56:58] non-attachment impermanence you know
[57:02] great stuff who can argue with that
[57:03] versus Godman let's say and what comes
[57:07] to mind is rebirth enlightenment which
[57:13] you know arguably is just the story that
[57:17] can't really be proved so I just
[57:20] wondered if you guys have grappled with
[57:22] that and if so you know what how have
[57:26] you how have you done it and what
[57:27] conclusions have you come to um the
[57:31] question was about grappling with
[57:34] different aspects of Buddhist teaching
[57:36] one is seems very practical like
[57:39] impermanence non-attachment the other
[57:41] seems more like Dogma like rebirth and
[57:44] enlightenment although I would read I'm
[57:47] an interesting conversation about the
[57:49] latter and you know how a theoretical
[57:53] and how realistic it is but sort of
[57:56] having that kind of split or feeling
[57:59] that kind of split and what's been our
[58:01] experience so you know I went to India
[58:06] in 1970 and I was very much in search of
[58:12] a very very practical approach I really
[58:15] want to learn some methods for being a
[58:18] happier person and I finally found that
[58:22] in the context of his intensive ten-day
[58:24] retreat so the teacher was SN Goenka and
[58:29] the first night of that retreat this is
[58:31] like really my introduction you know I I
[58:34] mean I had read some books and stuff in
[58:36] college but this is really like my
[58:38] heartfelt introduction almost the first
[58:43] thing he said was the Buddha's did not
[58:45] teach Buddhism the Buddha taught a way
[58:46] of life
[58:48] and so that was the foundation of my
[58:52] understanding from the get-go
[58:54] you know and there was so much emphasis
[58:57] within that particular tradition or that
[59:00] those particular lineages of burmese
[59:04] teaching that you know of all the things
[59:09] of the buddha they would pick out the
[59:11] column of Ceuta you know don't believe
[59:13] anything just because I've said it
[59:17] because a great elder has said it
[59:19] because you've read it in this sacred
[59:20] text put it into practice see for
[59:23] yourself what's true that it was almost
[59:25] like that was like it looks like the
[59:27] ethical ground so questioning was
[59:30] important the most important thing was
[59:33] putting it into practice if you have the
[59:34] kind of cynicism so that you didn't want
[59:36] to bother doing that you know that was a
[59:39] different kind of doubt because I was
[59:41] just holding you back right just put it
[59:45] into practice see for yourself if it's
[59:48] useful what's true and so on but within
[59:51] the context definitely there was a
[59:54] cosmology and there was an approach that
[59:57] included rebirth and karma and many
[1:00:01] realms of existence and we had one
[1:00:04] teacher of teacher named moon indra who
[1:00:09] mr. to describe the environment in which
[1:00:12] we were being nurtured and and helped
[1:00:15] along he you know somebody would ask a
[1:00:17] question about rebirth into other realms
[1:00:20] of existence and he'd say you don't have
[1:00:21] to believe it it's true but you don't
[1:00:23] have to believe it
[1:00:25] you know so I personally have not felt a
[1:00:28] sense of grappling or or trying to put
[1:00:31] two disparate things together I never
[1:00:33] ever felt as expected of me that I have
[1:00:36] a buy-in to some system that didn't make
[1:00:42] sense to me I'm the other kind of does
[1:00:44] make sense to me you know but we've got
[1:00:47] especially enlightenment but it doesn't
[1:00:51] matter you know and if they told me it
[1:00:53] didn't matter so I wasn't going to make
[1:00:55] it matter and that I think we can tell
[1:01:00] it in ourselves that kind of healthy
[1:01:04] questioning is different than the kind
[1:01:08] of doubt that has a stand back and sort
[1:01:11] of I don't know about that you know it's
[1:01:14] like so old-fashioned or you know I have
[1:01:19] to be relevant or whatever you know
[1:01:22] which is really much more like cynicism
[1:01:26] I think then questioning just did some
[1:01:32] two things two things one is there's a
[1:01:39] very nice phrase by the poet called
[1:01:43] Coleridge I believe who talked about the
[1:01:46] willing suspension of disbelief and I
[1:01:50] think it's a very useful idea in dealing
[1:01:55] with things that are beyond what we may
[1:01:59] currently understand and to just
[1:02:03] acknowledge there there's a lot of
[1:02:05] mysteries about a lot of things and just
[1:02:10] a second the attachment to a belief that
[1:02:12] can be attachment to disbelief and what
[1:02:16] I found so helpful it is just this has
[1:02:20] become a very favorite mantra of mine
[1:02:24] with questions like this who knows
[1:02:30] but but it's not a who knows of
[1:02:35] confusion it's a who knows of openness
[1:02:38] it's like who knows you know certainly
[1:02:43] there are a lot of great beings who
[1:02:48] teach this and believe in it and but
[1:02:52] it's not something that I've experienced
[1:02:53] for myself so knows yeah and that
[1:02:59] openness just is a very evil way you
[1:03:05] know of engaging with new ideas or
[1:03:08] different ideas or things it seems
[1:03:10] strange without either attachment to
[1:03:12] believing them or attachment to
[1:03:14] disbelieving okay um so I'm a pretty uh
[1:03:28] when you stand up please I can I guess
[1:03:31] I'm sorry so I'm a beginner right I'd
[1:03:33] probably my first like big group
[1:03:36] meditation and so I was telling my
[1:03:38] co-workers like Oh like I can't go out
[1:03:40] you know where I'm going to this
[1:03:42] meditation thing I work I work at a law
[1:03:46] firm it's very competitive and they had
[1:03:48] all kind of just like implicitly assumed
[1:03:49] like I was doing it to get ahead or that
[1:03:52] there was some sort of advantage I would
[1:03:54] get out of it and so I was like there is
[1:04:00] right but my point is that I was
[1:04:03] thinking about it on the way up here and
[1:04:05] I'm like the why why am i coming
[1:04:06] here and I guess we said we talked a lot
[1:04:09] about intentions right and I think it's
[1:04:12] out to be shallow be to come here and be
[1:04:15] like well you know I can get ahead at
[1:04:18] work or I can get ahead and you know I
[1:04:19] can understand you know my relationships
[1:04:21] better or whatever so I guess what is a
[1:04:24] good intention to come to meditation
[1:04:27] with
[1:04:29] over the Hui Ganesha so the question was
[1:04:34] he's new to this business first and a
[1:04:37] big group meditation he works in a law
[1:04:38] firm very competitive but wondering
[1:04:42] about the motive the motivation even for
[1:04:44] coming here you know is it just kind of
[1:04:47] together
[1:04:48] to get a certain age engine and to get
[1:04:50] ahead and so question is you know what
[1:04:54] about motivation in undertaking a
[1:04:57] breakfast you know undertaking even an
[1:04:59] interest in it first I think it's really
[1:05:02] important to realize that motivations
[1:05:07] change you know and we may start with
[1:05:10] one motivation and maybe the motivation
[1:05:14] you know is not 100 percent pure as they
[1:05:21] might be you know ambition or you know I
[1:05:24] was this going to help me you know get
[1:05:27] ahead in the office or whatever it is
[1:05:28] which is not necessarily a bad
[1:05:31] motivation anybody but as we get into
[1:05:34] the practice and we understand the
[1:05:37] nature of just a whole our mind our body
[1:05:41] our lives and we become more attuned
[1:05:45] actually to the mid to the motivations
[1:05:48] that are running our lives that
[1:05:52] awareness itself that growing awareness
[1:05:55] of our motivations enables us then to
[1:05:59] begin to make some choices of this this
[1:06:02] feels like a good thing to do this this
[1:06:03] is not but the motivation will change as
[1:06:07] that understanding grows so I'll just
[1:06:10] tell one little motivation story to
[1:06:12] sharing story so I was on retreat first
[1:06:18] just so you know that for meditation
[1:06:22] teachers a good story is gold we like we
[1:06:28] like story vultures
[1:06:30] you know and and as soon as we hear it
[1:06:33] mine so I was on retreat and I was
[1:06:40] reading some Buddhist texts and I came
[1:06:42] across something and there was a good
[1:06:44] story in it and I thought Aaron was
[1:06:46] writing one of her books at that time on
[1:06:48] her many books and I thought that would
[1:06:50] be a great story for Sharon's book that
[1:06:53] was the first thought and the second
[1:06:56] thought was no I'll just keep this story
[1:06:58] for myself and then the third thought
[1:07:03] was no that's just being selfish I'm
[1:07:06] share the story with her but I'm going
[1:07:10] to tell her what I'm going through so
[1:07:11] she feels a little indebted item I just
[1:07:19] went through this hole finally at a
[1:07:22] certain point I asked basically the
[1:07:24] question you're here well with the
[1:07:26] purity of the motivation in all this
[1:07:27] yeah obviously so so many so many
[1:07:31] different motivations and I realized
[1:07:34] that there was a pure motivation and was
[1:07:37] in the very first thought so even though
[1:07:40] all those other thoughts followed
[1:07:43] because fortunately I was mindful enough
[1:07:46] to see them and to watch them I could
[1:07:48] just see them run through my mind ask
[1:07:51] myself the question of how where was
[1:07:53] that moment of pure motor I was in the
[1:07:55] first horse then I could go back and
[1:07:59] know off of the story to challenge from
[1:08:01] that place of the ps/2 the story she
[1:08:04] didn't even think was a great story
[1:08:05] [Laughter]
[1:08:14] so I think it's really really important
[1:08:18] to know that unless you happen to be a
[1:08:23] saint very often we have mixed motives
[1:08:27] you know and the more where we become
[1:08:30] the more or where we are of those mixed
[1:08:32] motives and to that awareness we can
[1:08:35] actually then begin to make some more
[1:08:38] skillful choices
[1:08:39] so I'd say whatever brings you to the
[1:08:41] practice whatever it is is fine I mean
[1:08:44] watch how the motivations evolve from
[1:08:46] that I was also highly amused I think I
[1:08:51] agree with everything Joseph said and it
[1:08:53] is true I believe that through
[1:08:56] meditation one has a greater acuity of
[1:08:59] perception more perspective taking and
[1:09:02] ability to not get so distracted and all
[1:09:06] the things that might help you get ahead
[1:09:07] in your work but I was just so highly
[1:09:10] amused that these days people think
[1:09:15] about meditation as a tool to get ahead
[1:09:17] whereas in my day you know like when I
[1:09:21] was young meditator it was like that's
[1:09:24] like navel gazing you know like that's
[1:09:26] like the laziest thing you could do
[1:09:28] that's like perpetual vacation you know
[1:09:31] you can end up being like a doormat so I
[1:09:33] think we've actually made some progress
[1:09:36] and only
[1:09:45] [Music]
[1:09:49] you
[1:09:49] [Music]