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Inspiration

Four Career Types: FindYour Path & Psychology

Arthur Brooks
Arthur Brooks
Oct 27, 2025
11 min read

TLDR: Most business schools teach that careers follow a single linear trajectory—moving upward through better positions and higher pay. This assumption is wrong. Behavioral scientist Arthur Brooks presents research from psychologist Michael Driver showing there are actually four distinct career types based on individual psychology: the linear, the expert, the spiral, and the transitory. Which type suits you depends on your values, risk tolerance, and how you want your work to integrate with the rest of your life. The happiest workers are those whose career structure matches their psychology, not those chasing someone else's definition of success. Beyond identifying your type, Brooks shares four rules for making a good job change: manage expectations, build happiness outside work first, jump before you're pushed, and don't be afraid of change.

Read · 9 sections

What Is Your Natural Career Type?

The dominant assumption in business schools, universities, and much of the education system is that all professionals follow the same career shape: a straight line moving steadily upward. You take a job after graduation, stay until something better comes along—more money, more prestige, more power—then move up again. Repeat until retirement. This is the linear career type. People on linear paths might change jobs every three to six years, always in pursuit of advancement.

But Michael Driver and his colleagues at the University of Southern California challenged this in the 1990s research later developed further by organizational psychologists. They found that not everyone naturally fits the linear model. Instead, professionals fall into four distinct patterns based on their psychology and what they value.

The expert career type is similar to linear but moves much more slowly and rarely changes. Expert-track professionals have one job or career they stay in for decades, receiving modest annual cost-of-living raises—perhaps 2 to 3 percent yearly. Security and dependability, not rapid advancement, form the bulk of their psychological reward. Many government jobs, academic positions, and stable institutional roles attract expert-type professionals. These workers integrate work with the rest of their lives deliberately: they have hobbies, family time, and interests outside the job. The expert career offers psychological stability in exchange for a slower climb.

The spiral career type involves changing jobs every three to four years, but not always upward. Spiral careerists move laterally or even down for a time—perhaps leaving a lucrative role to explore a new industry or try a different kind of work. They're motivated by variety, learning, and the chance to do something different. Early in their careers they might accept lower pay for the chance to spiral into a new field. As they gain experience, they can often command higher compensation even when switching domains. The spiral type craves novelty and diverse experience over steady advancement.

The transitory career type is the least common. These professionals have no stable career anchor at all. They may work contract to contract, take gigs across different fields, or move between industries without a coherent upward path. Transitory types accept constant uncertainty in exchange for absolute freedom. This can suit certain personalities—creative freelancers, seasonal workers, or those building multiple income streams simultaneously. It requires a psychological tolerance for instability that most people don't have.

Why Your Psychology Determines Your Career Fit

The key insight from Driver's research is that career satisfaction doesn't come from following a universally "successful" path. It comes from aligning your career structure with your actual psychology. Someone with an expert psychology forced into a linear track—constantly chasing the next promotion—will burn out. Conversely, a linear-minded person stuck in an expert role may feel trapped and frustrated by lack of growth.

Brooks illustrates this with his own experience. He never felt comfortable with the linear assumption of always doing better, making more, running faster. It felt confining. Many people watching experience the same mismatch: they've internalized that they "should" follow a linear path because that's what business school teaches, but their natural psychology pulls them elsewhere.

Understanding your type is often clarifying. For the first time, many people feel "seen"—the career path they've always felt drawn to is actually a legitimate psychological pattern, not a failure to be ambitious enough.

What Happens When You Change Jobs?

Research on job changers reveals a consistent pattern: happiness dips after the initial honeymoon period. When people survey their satisfaction in a new role, there's an initial spike—the excitement of novelty, fresh challenges, new colleagues. Then, usually within six months to a year, satisfaction falls back down. For some, it drops below where they started in the previous job. This pattern suggests that the grass-is-greener effect is real and temporary.

Brooks cites data showing that people are reluctant to leave jobs, even when they should. They overestimate the risk and underestimate their ability to adapt. This hesitation often masks what's actually driving the desire to change: are you running away from something bad (push), or running toward something better (pull)? The answer matters.

A critical factor in post-change satisfaction emerges from organizational psychology research: whether people organize their thinking around themselves or around the organization. Those with an organization-centered mindset—people who think about the company's mission, values, and how their work serves the broader mission—report significantly higher satisfaction. Self-centered thinkers who focus primarily on how the job benefits them are far more likely to experience dissatisfaction and burnout, regardless of how good the job objectively is.

Self-Centered vs. Organization-Centered: The Happiness Divide

This distinction is one of the most powerful findings Brooks discusses. People who ask "What does this organization stand for, and how can I contribute to that?" are happier than those asking "What's in it for me?" This isn't about altruism or self-denial; it's about what the data shows predicts actual happiness and satisfaction.

When you center your work mindset on the organization's values and mission, you're less likely to spiral into dissatisfaction when the job becomes routine. When you center it on yourself—tracking whether you're being paid enough, recognized enough, promoted fast enough—you create a comparison engine that rarely stops firing. The organization-centered approach is more resilient because it doesn't depend on external validation hitting a moving target.

Why Your Life Outside Work Matters More Than You Think

One of Brooks's strongest claims is this: if you want to be happy in your job, build happiness outside your job first. Research consistently shows that people who cultivate satisfaction, meaning, and pleasure in their personal lives—through relationships, hobbies, leisure, community—that satisfaction bleeds into work. Conversely, people who expect their job to be their primary source of happiness often feel disappointed.

Brooks prefers the term "work-life integration" to "work-life balance." Balance suggests a static separation between work and life. Integration means recognizing that your job is part of your life, and the two influence each other bidirectionally. A job that makes your life happier, combined with a life that's already rich and meaningful outside work, creates a compound effect.

Critically, this means being intentional about leisure. It's not what you do on vacation or the occasional weekend. Leisure in the sense that matters for happiness is regular, purposeful engagement in activities that bring you joy or rest—woodworking, hiking, reading, time with friends, creative projects. People who have no real leisure—who work constantly or fill their off-hours with obligations—cannot build the life satisfaction that protects job satisfaction.

The research Brooks cites suggests that liking your life outside work is one of the single biggest predictors of whether you'll like your job. This inverts the common belief that a better job will fix your life. Usually it's the other way around.

Push vs. Pull: Why You Want to Change

When considering a job change, ask yourself honestly: Am I being pushed out of my current role by dissatisfaction, burnout, or a bad situation? Or am I being pulled toward a new opportunity because I genuinely want it? The distinction shapes whether the change is likely to succeed.

Push dynamics often lead to poor decisions. You're fleeing pain, and in that state of mind you're likely to romanticize the next role and overlook its real limitations. You're also more likely to carry the same problems—the same working habits, the same relationship patterns with authority, the same expectations—into the new job, where they'll reproduce the same unhappiness.

Pull dynamics are different. You're moving toward something you want, not away from something painful. You've likely done more realistic due diligence. You understand what you're getting into because you've chosen it, not because you had to escape.

Four Rules for Making a Good Job Change

Brooks distills the research into four concrete rules that increase the likelihood a job change will actually improve your satisfaction:

Rule 1: Manage Your Expectations. The honeymoon period is real, and it will end. Expect that the initial excitement will fade and the job will become routine. This isn't failure; it's normal. If you know this in advance, you're less likely to interpret the drop in novelty as a sign you've made a mistake.

Rule 2: Look for Your Happiness First Outside Your Job. Before changing jobs, invest in building a richer life outside work. Develop leisure practices, strengthen relationships, engage in activities that matter to you. This foundation will make you more resilient in any new job and more realistic about what a job can provide. You won't expect it to solve your life.

Rule 3: Jump Before You're Pushed. If you're thinking about a change, don't wait until you're burned out, desperate, or forced out. The research suggests that people who make voluntary changes from a position of relative stability do better than those who change only when they have no choice. A voluntary jump gives you agency and usually better options.

Rule 4: Don't Be Afraid. Change is inherently uncertain, and fear is natural. But the data shows that the risk of a bad job change is often overestimated, and people's ability to adapt is underestimated. Most people can learn new jobs, build new relationships with colleagues, and succeed in new contexts. Fear of change can keep you stuck in situations that don't fit your psychology or values.

Career vs. Marriage: Why One Lasts and the Other Doesn't

Brooks raises a provocative observation: lifelong marriages are strongly associated with happiness and well-being, but lifelong careers are not. In fact, people often thrive by changing careers or jobs. The implication is that stability in relationships matters profoundly in ways that stability in work does not. You can be happy with many different jobs, but you cannot as easily be happy with many different spouses (at least not simultaneously or in sequence without consequence).

This suggests that the cultural pressure to find the "perfect job" and stay there forever is misplaced. Your career may need to evolve as you do. Your values, interests, and psychology change. What fit you at 25 may not fit at 40. The happiest people are often those willing to recognize this and act on it, not those clinging to an outdated version of what they should be.

Where to Go From Here

Start by identifying your natural career type. Are you linear (driven by advancement and prestige), expert (seeking security and mastery in one domain), spiral (craving variety and learning), or transitory (comfortable with constant change)? Notice whether your current career path aligns with this type, or whether you're fighting your own psychology.

Second, audit your life outside work. Do you have real leisure? Are your relationships strong? Do you have activities and communities that bring you joy? If not, before you change jobs, invest there. The research is clear: a better job won't fix a depleted life.

Third, if you're considering a job change, clarify whether you're being pushed or pulled. If you're running from something, pause and address what you're running from first. If you're moving toward something, do your due diligence and expect that the initial excitement will wear off—that's normal.

Finally, remember that your career is one part of your life, not its entirety. The happiest people are those whose work integrates with their values and life stage, not those who sacrifice everything for career success. As Brooks teaches at Harvard and writes about weekly in the Atlantic, the science of happiness points toward integration, intentionality, and alignment—and a willingness to let your career evolve as you do.

Transcript

[0:00] What type of career do you have? The

[0:03] assumption with of a lot of business

[0:05] schools and a lot of universities and

[0:07] the whole education system for [music]

[0:08] that matter is that we all have this

[0:09] kind of linear trajectory to our

[0:11] careers. Change when you can do [music]

[0:13] better and you're going to do that until

[0:15] well the end. That's kind of how it

[0:18] works. That assumption is wrong. A lot

[0:21] of people burn out on their linear

[0:23] careers because [music] they're actually

[0:24] not linears. What they should be doing

[0:26] is thinking about what's my next career

[0:28] going to be. There's all this stuff out

[0:29] there about work life balance. I've even

[0:31] [music] mentioned it here. I don't like

[0:33] work life balance. I like work life

[0:34] integration where your job makes your

[0:36] life happier and your life [music] makes

[0:38] your job happier because your job is

[0:40] part of your life. A lot of what we find

[0:42] in the research is that if you cultivate

[0:44] outside of work happiness, [music] it

[0:46] bleeds into your work itself.

[0:55] Hi friends, welcome back to office

[0:57] hours. [music] I'm Arthur Brooks. I'm a

[0:59] behavioral scientist dedicated to

[1:01] lifting people up and bringing them

[1:02] together in bonds of happiness and love

[1:05] using science and ideas. I want you in

[1:07] the movement of happiness to have more

[1:10] of it in your life and and to bring it

[1:12] more to the lives of other people. And

[1:13] that's why I do this show. That's why I

[1:15] do my writing and that's why I'm so glad

[1:17] that you're with me. If you like this

[1:19] show, if this is not your first episode

[1:20] or or if it is, please do share this. uh

[1:24] I want people to be exposed to these

[1:25] ideas because this is a toolkit. This is

[1:28] what I do is to make it possible for

[1:30] people to understand the science of

[1:31] happiness and how they can change their

[1:33] own habits and become happiness teachers

[1:35] themselves. I teach happiness at Harvard

[1:37] University and I write about it in the

[1:39] Atlantic and a column I write every week

[1:40] called How to Build a Life comes out

[1:42] every Thursday morning. It's about 1,200

[1:44] words on a new topic on the science of

[1:46] happiness. So if you like this show, do

[1:48] subscribe to that as well. And and while

[1:50] you're at it, pick up a new a copy of my

[1:52] new book, which is right behind me, this

[1:54] handsome yellow book right here, The

[1:56] Happiness Files: Insights on Life and

[1:58] Work. There's 33 essays, a lot like what

[2:00] you see in this show. Today, I have a

[2:04] very special topic, and that's how to

[2:06] manage your career. I want to do three

[2:09] things in particular. H how you know,

[2:12] what kind of career do you have? You

[2:15] might not know. I'm not talking about

[2:17] what substantively you do all day or

[2:19] what industry you're in. I'm talking

[2:21] about the four kinds of careers based on

[2:24] four different areas of human

[2:26] psychology. H this is going to be useful

[2:29] to you, I dare say. The second is how to

[2:32] change jobs when it's appropriate and

[2:34] how to know when it's time to go. The

[2:37] third is what can you do to give

[2:38] yourself the highest likelihood of being

[2:40] happy in a new job. So these are the

[2:43] three things I want to talk about. What

[2:44] is your career type? How do you change

[2:46] jobs and how do you make a job as happy

[2:49] as it can possibly be? That's really

[2:51] what I'm all about today. Now, if you

[2:53] like the show, once again, please do

[2:54] like and subscribe and give us any

[2:56] questions or comments that you've got

[2:57] anywhere where you're watching this. Um,

[2:59] send us an email at office hours

[3:01] arthurbrooks.com or or just put in the

[3:04] comment section below and we'll respond

[3:05] ordinarily and and we certainly will

[3:07] read all of that. And once again, please

[3:09] do suggest this show to all your

[3:12] friends, especially if you enjoy it.

[3:14] Okay, let's get started. What type of

[3:17] career do you have? Now, uh this is a

[3:21] question that was asked by psychologists

[3:23] at the University of Southern California

[3:24] in the 1990s. It was a team led by a

[3:26] psychologist by the name of Michael

[3:28] Driver. I think this research is really,

[3:31] really super cool. Why? Because I love

[3:33] research that's counterintuitive. And

[3:35] let me give you an example of what I

[3:36] mean by this. I teach at a fancy

[3:39] business school, really, really nice

[3:40] high quality business school. And we do

[3:42] so many things, right? I I love teaching

[3:44] there. But there's one thing that we

[3:46] don't always get right, which is this

[3:48] assumption that our students have one

[3:51] kind of career trajectory. We don't all

[3:54] assume they're going to go into one

[3:55] industry. They're not going to go into,

[3:56] you know, some into manufacturing and

[3:58] some into consulting and some into

[4:00] financial services. We don't make any

[4:03] assumptions about that. But we often

[4:05] make the mistake of assuming that our

[4:07] students are going to have this shape to

[4:09] their careers. They're going to come out

[4:11] of business school. they're going to

[4:12] take a a job and then they're only going

[4:14] to change jobs when they get a better

[4:16] job in terms of position or power or

[4:19] prestige or wealth. That's when they're

[4:21] going to change. And so it's kind of a

[4:22] stairstep approach up or you might think

[4:24] of as a linear career. Michael Driver

[4:27] and his colleagues in the 1990s and then

[4:30] later this has been developed more and

[4:32] again once all this stuff goes into the

[4:34] show notes so you can look at these

[4:35] papers if you want. I really recommend

[4:36] it. They're they're great. Um the

[4:38] assumption with of a lot of business

[4:41] schools and a lot of universities and

[4:42] the whole education system for that

[4:44] matter is that we all have this kind of

[4:45] linear trajectory to our careers. Change

[4:48] when you can do better and you're going

[4:50] to do that until well the end. That's

[4:54] kind of how it works. That assumption is

[4:56] wrong according to Michael Driver. On

[4:58] the contrary, there's four different

[5:01] distinct career types based on your

[5:04] psychology. And everybody who's a

[5:06] professional, and one in some way,

[5:08] shape, or form fits into one of these

[5:10] four career types. So, I'm going to tell

[5:12] you what the other three are, and then I

[5:13] want you to think a little bit about

[5:15] what's your natural career type. And a

[5:17] bunch of you watching this are going to

[5:19] feel kind of seen for the first time, I

[5:22] dare say, because I told you about that

[5:24] linear career type. That's actually one

[5:26] of them. And there are people like that.

[5:29] But maybe you think that's that's how

[5:32] everybody thought I was or that's how I

[5:34] always thought I was. But I never liked

[5:35] that. I never liked that. I never felt I

[5:37] felt confined to always do better,

[5:40] always do more, always make more, run

[5:44] faster. Huh? Here's the other three

[5:46] career types.

[5:48] One career type is kind of similar to

[5:50] that linear career type, but it doesn't

[5:52] go up as fast and it doesn't have as

[5:54] much change. It's called the expert

[5:57] career type. The expert career type is

[6:00] one that that goes up a little bit, kind

[6:02] of cost a living, and it almost never

[6:04] changes.

[6:06] So, the linear career type I talked

[6:08] about before, you can be changing jobs

[6:10] every 3, four, five, six years. Really,

[6:12] really common, but only when something

[6:14] better comes along. And the expert

[6:15] career type you almost never change

[6:17] because it's the one job and career that

[6:19] you have that rewards you a little bit

[6:21] more each year. And a big part of your

[6:23] compensation is security and

[6:25] dependability. So a lot of government

[6:27] jobs are these expert career types.

[6:29] People who like this, a lot of people in

[6:31] academia, which is a sector I've been in

[6:34] for a long time, they like this expert

[6:36] career path. My dad was on the expert

[6:38] career path. He had the same job for

[6:40] literally decades. And he got probably a

[6:42] cost of living advance, maybe two and a

[6:44] half, 3% raise. Um he could count on it.

[6:47] He wasn't trying to make sure that all

[6:49] of his waking hours were dedicated to

[6:51] his work. On the contrary, he's paying

[6:53] attention to his family and he had

[6:54] hobbies. He was a really, really skilled

[6:56] woodworker. He's a good carpenter. And

[6:58] this job was one part of his life, but

[7:00] he wanted to make sure he always had it.

[7:01] So, he had good work life integration

[7:04] and balance, but he also had great

[7:07] security. That's what people who who are

[7:09] on the on the expert path, what they

[7:11] look like. Now, a lot of you don't have

[7:13] that, but a lot of your parents and

[7:14] grandparents did. and and I really

[7:17] respected a lot of the people who do. I

[7:18] don't have it, right? But that's only

[7:21] the second career type. And again, this

[7:23] is based on individual psychology. This

[7:26] is not based on the job. It's based on

[7:27] the person who seeks out these things.

[7:29] And one of the problems is when you're

[7:31] in the wrong career type with respect to

[7:34] your psychology, then you get really

[7:35] uncomfortable. I'm not quite there yet.

[7:38] The third is called the transitory

[7:40] career type. The transitory career type

[7:42] is the career type where you're you're

[7:44] kind of jumping between things all the

[7:46] time. You'll change jobs every one and a

[7:49] half to three years and and sometimes

[7:52] you make more and sometimes you make

[7:53] less. But that's really not the point.

[7:55] These are the people who say, "I don't

[7:57] live to work. I work to live." These are

[8:00] people who have their their their life

[8:03] is really outside of work and and work

[8:04] is kind of a necessary evil. And again,

[8:06] I'm not casting aspersions. I'm not

[8:08] saying there's something wrong with you

[8:09] if that's how you see things. That's

[8:11] just the life that you want. But the

[8:12] career that you to see from that

[8:13] wouldn't be like my dad who taught at a

[8:15] university, same university for decade

[8:18] after decade. This would be somebody who

[8:20] moves around a lot. You know, I was I

[8:22] was, you know, driving a moving van out

[8:24] of Tucson for a while and then, you

[8:26] know, I met a girl in Bangor, Maine. So,

[8:27] I moved there. I was a barista for two

[8:29] years. That didn't work out. So, I went

[8:30] to San Diego. I'd always wanted to live

[8:32] in San Diego. Such a beautiful place.

[8:33] And I got a job in a surf shop and that

[8:35] was kind of cool. But, you get my point,

[8:38] right? I mean, parents often worry that

[8:40] their kids have this transitory career

[8:41] path, but that's because they don't

[8:43] understand their their their children's

[8:45] uh priorities in life. You decide

[8:47] whether or not that's a good priority or

[8:49] bad priority. I strongly suspect that

[8:51] most of you watching this don't have

[8:53] that career path, but it does exist.

[8:55] That's the third one. But now, the

[8:57] fourth one, this is the one I want you

[8:59] to be paying attention to because this

[9:00] fourth one is really super common, but

[9:03] most people who have it don't know they

[9:05] have it. This is called the spiral

[9:07] career path. The spiral career path

[9:10] ordinarily is a bunch of smaller careers

[9:13] stitched together in the mind of the

[9:16] person and it has rhyme and reason

[9:18] according to that person but maybe not

[9:20] to outward people to people on the

[9:22] outside. This is usually characterized

[9:24] by job and career changes every 7 to 12

[9:27] years. This is something we often see.

[9:30] There's a lot of women who have this

[9:31] career path and it'll be, you know,

[9:32] after school working in something for

[9:34] seven years and then stepping back a

[9:36] little bit because of family life and

[9:39] working part-time perhaps and then going

[9:41] back into the workforce but in something

[9:42] totally different that they'd always

[9:44] been really interested in. And then

[9:46] seven or 12 years later going into an

[9:47] going in an entirely different

[9:49] direction. And you look at it from the

[9:50] outside, you're like, "This has no rhyme

[9:52] or reason." But you talk to the person

[9:54] and she says or he says, "No, no, no,

[9:56] no, no, no, no. Everything I did I

[9:58] learned from what I had done before and

[10:00] everything I did in my career was

[10:02] enriched by my past experiences. I can

[10:04] see it. Spirals are really interesting.

[10:07] Those are the big career changers. And a

[10:10] lot of people who are pushed by school

[10:13] onto the linear career path more more

[10:15] and more change every three or four

[10:17] years because this is a better

[10:18] opportunity. It's a better opportunity

[10:20] in your field. You're not going to

[10:21] change field but you are going to change

[10:24] jobs because somebody appreciates you

[10:25] more there. They feel kind of out of

[10:27] sorts and they don't love it that much,

[10:29] but they'll do it. They don't quite

[10:30] understand why they're burning out. A

[10:33] lot of people burn out on their linear

[10:34] careers because they're actually not

[10:36] linears. They're spirals. What they

[10:38] should be doing is thinking about what's

[10:40] my next career going to be. Now, this

[10:42] was really interesting research for me

[10:44] because I'm a I'm a true spiral. I knew

[10:46] what I wanted to do for the rest of my

[10:48] life when I was 9 years old. I wanted to

[10:51] be a professional classical musician.

[10:53] That's all I wanted to do. I I want I

[10:54] literally wanted to be the world's

[10:56] greatest French horn player and that's

[10:57] all I was paying attention to all the

[10:59] way through school. I wound up dropping

[11:00] out of college when I was 19. Um I was

[11:03] completely unmotivated to be a college

[11:05] student. I just wanted to be a

[11:06] professional French horn player. So I

[11:08] went pro when I was 19 and and through

[11:10] my 20s that's that's what I was paying

[11:12] attention to. But in my late 20s I

[11:14] started to get really restive. To begin

[11:16] with I wasn't the world's greatest

[11:17] French horn player. I was good French

[11:19] horn player making a living but but I

[11:21] wasn't living up to what I wanted to be.

[11:23] And I also had done the same thing over

[11:25] and over and over again having played

[11:26] chamber music for a while and I played

[11:29] in a symphony orchestra in Barcelona for

[11:30] a while and I was teaching at a

[11:32] conservatory and I thought I'm going to

[11:34] kind of do the same thing over and over

[11:35] again and I want to try some new things.

[11:36] So I went to college in my late 20s. I

[11:39] went to college through distance

[11:40] learning as a matter of fact because I

[11:41] didn't really have any money but also I

[11:43] didn't have any time. I had a full-time

[11:44] job and so I found a good place to study

[11:46] and I did that. And when I did that I

[11:48] found I was super interested in all of

[11:50] these other things. I had no idea. I

[11:53] took a statistics class. Cool. I took

[11:55] calculus. Interesting. But what really

[11:58] lit me up was behavioral economics. I

[12:00] mean, just doing economics, I felt like

[12:02] I had this power to understand human

[12:03] behavior, but with a kind of a

[12:05] psychological twist, which is what I do

[12:08] now, right? But I didn't know. It was so

[12:09] interesting. And and by about two years

[12:12] into my college education, I'm like,

[12:13] "Yeah, man. I gotta make a change. I

[12:15] gotta make a change." So, I was still

[12:17] working as a French horn player. and I

[12:19] got my my master's degree at night in

[12:21] economics and then I'm like I'm still

[12:23] hungry and so I quit music. That was

[12:25] hard to do. I quit music when I was 31.

[12:28] It had been a long career. I did made my

[12:30] living full-time doing that for 12

[12:32] years. But I had to do that so I could

[12:33] get my PhD. And I went and got my PhD in

[12:36] public policy studying applied

[12:38] microeconomics and mathematical modeling

[12:40] with an emphasis on human behavior. And

[12:43] and then I became an academic starting

[12:45] to do the kind of stuff that I do now.

[12:47] And that was the first turn of the

[12:48] spiral. Now, I should have known that

[12:51] there was going to be more turns to the

[12:53] spiral, but I didn't know about this

[12:54] model. And sure enough, by the end of

[12:56] the decade, I wanted to do a new thing.

[12:58] And I left and I went to become the

[12:59] president of a think tank in Washington

[13:01] DC. I was a chief executive of a huge

[13:03] nonprofit organization. And I did that

[13:06] for 10 and a half years. And then the

[13:08] spiral turned again. And I quit. I

[13:10] walked away. I'm really good at walking

[13:12] away from stuff, it turns out, which

[13:14] might seem imprudent. It certainly

[13:15] seemed really important to my parents uh

[13:17] after some of these spiral turns and and

[13:19] I I did what I do now which is I went to

[13:21] Harvard and I I introduced a class in

[13:23] the science of happiness and I started

[13:24] doing all this stuff in media about

[13:26] bringing the science of happiness to you

[13:27] which is the fourth turn of the spiral

[13:29] but I've had these four incredibly

[13:31] different careers. People are like wow

[13:32] that's weird man French horn player to

[13:35] happiness professor how does it work and

[13:36] it's like spiral career baby but you got

[13:40] to know how to do it and you have to

[13:42] have the confidence to do it. That's

[13:44] what I want to talk about because a lot

[13:46] of you are spirals and right now I'm

[13:48] talking about this. You're like, "Yeah,

[13:49] yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's not so

[13:51] easy, is it?" Well, it turns out there's

[13:54] a lot of research that can help you

[13:55] spiral better. And even if you're not a

[13:57] spiral, if you're a transitory or an

[13:59] expert or even a linear, you're going to

[14:02] switch jobs a lot and you need to know

[14:04] how to do it well to give the highest

[14:07] likelihood of being successful and happy

[14:09] over the process of doing it. So, that's

[14:11] what I really want to talk to. And then,

[14:13] and we'll come back to your spiraling

[14:16] and I want you to be thinking about that

[14:17] along the way because you deserve to

[14:20] have a career of your own design. Your

[14:23] creativity should be made manifest in

[14:25] what you do with your life because your

[14:26] life is a startup. You're an

[14:28] entrepreneur. You incorporated. You're

[14:30] the founder and you get to do whatever

[14:32] you want with it so that you can have

[14:35] the love and happiness that should be

[14:36] your destiny. And you can bring the love

[14:38] and happiness that other people deserve

[14:39] and and need too over the course of your

[14:42] life, but you're not going to do it very

[14:44] happily or well if you're not in the

[14:47] right career path, if you don't know

[14:49] which of these things that you actually

[14:51] are.

[14:52] Okay. So, when you are on almost any one

[14:56] of these career paths, you're going to

[14:59] change jobs. Um, almost everybody does.

[15:02] Um, our graduate students, depending on

[15:04] the data that you believe, are going to

[15:06] have four different careers, whether

[15:10] they're spirals or not, they'll be in

[15:11] sort of different industries. And and

[15:13] probably 9 to 11 really different jobs,

[15:16] even if they're all in the same career,

[15:18] in the same, you know, area,

[15:20] professional area. And so that means

[15:22] you're going to be moving between

[15:22] employers. And and then the question

[15:24] becomes, how do you do that well? And

[15:26] how do you do that happily? And how do

[15:27] you do that successfully? And there's a

[15:29] lot of research that can actually help

[15:31] that. Now, that for some people is super

[15:34] scary. There's two types of people that

[15:36] find changing jobs incredibly scary.

[15:38] Number one is people who are riskaverse,

[15:40] naturally riskaverse. These are people

[15:42] who have a fear that change is actually

[15:45] going to hurt them because fear of the

[15:46] unknown is something that's particularly

[15:48] scary to them. And and there's a whole

[15:50] lot of neuroscience about that, but

[15:52] people who who fear a lot of change,

[15:54] there's a lot of amygdala activity in

[15:56] the lyic system of the brain, etc., etc.

[15:58] You know who you are if you're a really

[15:59] riskaverse person. probably not very

[16:01] many of you watching this are this

[16:03] because you're probably pretty

[16:05] entrepreneurial and you're and and and

[16:07] risk isn't your problem on the contrary.

[16:09] But but maybe some of you are and that's

[16:10] a normal thing. There's a distribution

[16:12] of people who hate risk and don't hate

[16:14] risk and and I've talked at different

[16:15] times about how to get better at taking

[16:17] big risks, how to have a little danger

[16:19] in your life. As a matter of fact, I'm

[16:21] going to do a show about the importance

[16:23] of embracing danger. I've done research

[16:26] on that. It's kind of cool. The second

[16:28] type of person who struggles with job

[16:30] changes are people who are high in

[16:31] conscientiousness. Conscientiousness is

[16:33] one of the five big personality traits.

[16:36] Openness to experience,

[16:38] conscientiousness, extraversion,

[16:40] agreeableness, and neuroticism. These

[16:42] are the five uh the five big personality

[16:45] characteristics. Um and the way that you

[16:47] remember this is ocean, openness,

[16:49] conscientiousness, extraversion,

[16:50] agreeableness, neuroticism. That's how

[16:52] you remember that's how I remembered at

[16:54] the very beginning as well. And people

[16:55] who are really really conscientious,

[16:57] they they don't walk away from stuff

[16:59] because they have a commitment to it. So

[17:01] my dad, one of the reasons that he was

[17:02] on the expert career path besides

[17:04] wanting to have a reliable career where

[17:06] there was security and predictability

[17:08] and and work life balance is because he

[17:10] was an incredibly conscientious

[17:12] individual and you know he felt that he

[17:13] had committed his career to a particular

[17:15] employer and they had committed his

[17:18] career to him and that was the deal.

[17:20] That was the implicit bargain. Most of

[17:22] you, if you're under

[17:25] 40, you're like, "What? Are you kidding

[17:28] me? That's insane, right?" But that's

[17:30] old school. That's kind of the way that

[17:31] people were um a lot back in the day. My

[17:33] dad was born in 1936, so there you go.

[17:36] So, most people don't think that

[17:37] particular way, but conscientious people

[17:38] nonetheless, they they do have a more of

[17:40] a struggle um leaving their jobs. So,

[17:42] they stay put, right? But that can be a

[17:45] problem, right? So, so it can be scary

[17:47] to move, but unhappy to stay. And and

[17:51] and by the way, that's actually getting

[17:52] harder. Interesting statistic today. In

[17:54] uh in 2024,

[17:57] 51% of people said that they were uh

[18:00] looking for a new job. This is Yeah,

[18:02] this actually comes from the Wall Street

[18:03] Journal. 51% of Americans reported they

[18:06] were looking for a new job. That's

[18:07] really, really high, right? Actually,

[18:09] it's way down. During the Coronairus

[18:11] epidemic, some estimate said that 90% of

[18:14] people of professionals in the American

[18:16] economy were on the market. That's

[18:17] insane. But that's actually a function

[18:19] of the fact that a lot of people were

[18:21] not enjoying their jobs when they were,

[18:23] you know, having Zoom meetings all day

[18:27] long, which is pretty bad. I mean, even

[18:29] if it was convenient, it certainly

[18:31] didn't make you love your job more,

[18:33] which is one of the reasons that people

[18:34] were so keen to leave their jobs. So, in

[18:36] other words, 51% is high, but it's going

[18:37] down. And one of the reasons that that

[18:39] percentage of people that are looking

[18:41] for jobs is going down these days is

[18:42] because the job market is getting

[18:44] harder. You know, as I'm recording this,

[18:46] we have this weird situation in the

[18:47] American economy that economists can't

[18:49] quite figure out, as a matter of fact,

[18:51] where there's very few layoffs, but very

[18:54] little hiring. So, the job market is

[18:56] sort of constipated. It's sort of stuck

[18:58] is what we find. And that's one of the

[19:00] reasons that that people are having

[19:02] really really a lot of trouble when

[19:04] they're coming out of college finding

[19:05] jobs because nobody's leaving, but

[19:07] nobody's hiring and nobody's laying off

[19:09] at the same time. And so, kind of

[19:11] nothing's moving. So the result of that

[19:12] is that people are trying are a lot more

[19:14] conservative than they've been in the

[19:15] past. So it's hard. I get it. But even

[19:18] if you can find a job, the big fear that

[19:22] people have is if I change jobs, maybe

[19:25] it's worse. Like let's say that you have

[19:27] a job that you're you're done with. If

[19:30] you're a spiral, how do you know when

[19:32] it's time to change? The answer is

[19:34] you're not interested anymore. If you

[19:36] stay in a job where your interest is

[19:38] waning, you're going to burn out.

[19:39] Burnout is about interest is what it

[19:41] comes down to. So that's how you know if

[19:44] if you're at the end of the seven to 12

[19:45] year cycle fellow spirals, you'd be

[19:47] like, you know, I used to love it, but

[19:49] no, not so much. Why? Because I'm bored.

[19:52] And you hate being bored. You're a

[19:54] curious person. Spirals are always

[19:56] really curious people. But but you worry

[19:58] if I actually go into something new, am

[20:00] I going to be happier? I was terrified

[20:01] of this when I when I left music. I was

[20:04] burned out and I was ready to go. But,

[20:06] you know, I'm going to go to get my PhD.

[20:07] And I was 31, 32, 33 years old. And and

[20:11] and then become, I don't know, an

[20:13] economist. I don't know what I'm doing.

[20:16] I literally didn't know how to do

[20:17] anything except play the horn. And so,

[20:19] this might be the biggest mistake of my

[20:20] life. And a lot of people said that. A

[20:22] lot of my musician friends said, "You're

[20:23] walking into a hole, man. I mean, you

[20:26] don't know how to do this and you're not

[20:27] going to like it. What are you? Some

[20:28] sort of a square anyway." And it was

[20:30] super scary. I might not be happier. Um,

[20:33] it got a little bit easier later, but

[20:34] when I was a chief executive of a

[20:36] nonprofit, you know, people around me,

[20:37] when I was walking, I was voluntarily

[20:39] walking away from this cool corner

[20:42] office job, people said, "You're making

[20:44] the biggest mistake you'll ever make." I

[20:46] was walking into this what I'm doing

[20:48] now. It is so great. I'm so happy that I

[20:51] did it. And part of the reason I had the

[20:52] confidence to do that is because I had

[20:54] experience in job changing at that

[20:56] particular point. Okay. Now, back to the

[20:58] question. When you change jobs, let

[21:01] alone careers, will you be happier? Now,

[21:04] I have data on this, and this is data

[21:07] that you can actually use. Job changers,

[21:10] people who are changing jobs, there's a

[21:12] reason that they're doing that.

[21:13] Obviously, the average rating on a 1:7

[21:16] scale, and this is how social scientists

[21:18] always measure this, is called a Liyker

[21:19] scale. And the reason they measure

[21:21] things on a 1:7 scale, it's got a

[21:23] midpoint because it's got that number in

[21:25] the middle. So which has nice

[21:26] mathematical properties.

[21:29] Job changers on average rate their old

[21:31] job in satisfaction whereas one is the

[21:34] least satisfied and seven is the most

[21:36] satisfied as a 4.5. That's the average.

[21:39] Your results may vary. Maybe you're like

[21:41] it's a one. But if your job is a seven,

[21:43] you're probably not on the market,

[21:45] right? So the average is 4.5. Now you

[21:48] want to know what the satisfaction is

[21:51] and the new job on average. And we know

[21:53] what that is. the satisfaction jumps

[21:56] after switching in and the two months

[21:59] after switching to about six. That's

[22:01] called the honeymoon effect. 4.5 to six.

[22:03] So probably when you change jobs, you're

[22:05] going to be like, "This is way better.

[22:07] This is way better at the beginning."

[22:09] The problem is that it goes up for a few

[22:12] months and then it starts to go back

[22:13] down again. And what you find is that

[22:14] the you get this bump over the first

[22:16] three or four months and then it starts

[22:18] to decline. And and at the end of the

[22:20] first year, you find that generally

[22:22] speaking, it's down to about 5.5. at the

[22:24] end of the first year. You might call

[22:25] that the one-year itch for jobs, new

[22:28] jobs, the end of 12 months. The problem

[22:31] is not that you like it less than your

[22:33] old job because 5.5 at the end of 12

[22:35] months is still higher than 4.5 which is

[22:37] what you left. The problem is it was

[22:40] higher and then it fell. It fell a

[22:42] little bit and that falling is is is

[22:45] lousy. It's feeling it feels like

[22:47] negative progress and a lot of people

[22:48] really suffer from that which is the

[22:50] reason that you hear people often say at

[22:52] the end of 12 months I think I might

[22:53] have made a mistake because it's falling

[22:55] and I know it's going to keep falling

[22:57] and then I'm going to like it less than

[22:58] the one that I left and maybe I

[22:59] shouldn't have left that job. Some

[23:00] people actually bail and go back. That's

[23:04] almost always a mistake as it turns out.

[23:06] More on that in a second. Now how can

[23:09] you actually see things turn around

[23:12] again after that? Because now people in

[23:15] new jobs break up into two groups. Half

[23:17] of the people keep going down and half

[23:20] of the people start back up again after

[23:22] about a year. I know which group you

[23:25] want to be in. And here's how they

[23:26] differ. The groups that keep going back

[23:29] down and go back down to about 4.5,

[23:31] which is the job they left before or

[23:33] even lower, these are people according

[23:35] to the research, and this is a really

[23:36] interesting study from the Journal of

[23:37] Organizational Behavior uh from 2023.

[23:40] It's a pretty new study. Um that are

[23:42] self-centered about their orientation,

[23:44] about their career orientation. Now, I'm

[23:46] not saying that you're self-centered or

[23:47] a narcissistic or a selfish person, but

[23:50] you think about your career with respect

[23:52] to you only, right? People who have this

[23:56] self-orientation, self-centered

[23:57] orientation in their career, they tend

[23:59] to max out in the early months and keep

[24:02] and then start going back down and by

[24:04] the end of a year a little bit better

[24:05] than the old job, but it keeps going

[24:06] back down. and pretty soon after about

[24:08] 18 or 24 months they want to change

[24:10] again and they do have a lot of job

[24:11] turn. The people who start back up again

[24:14] after a year and they tend to spend a

[24:16] lot longer in their careers and so they

[24:18] can have a 7 to 12 year run is a really

[24:20] happy spiral are called organization

[24:22] centered people. They have an

[24:24] organization centered orientation. In

[24:26] other words, they think more about

[24:27] themselves as a member of a team. And

[24:29] that's why it's so critically important

[24:31] for you when you're going from one job

[24:33] to another to be thinking about the team

[24:35] you're joining. Do I like this team that

[24:38] I'm joining? As opposed to, is this job

[24:40] going to be good for me? If it's a good

[24:41] team, it's going to be good for you is

[24:43] the whole point. But be thinking about

[24:44] the organization. I'm going to be proud

[24:46] of this. Am I going to be happy with

[24:48] these people? Am I going to learn and

[24:51] grow a lot in this job so that I can

[24:54] create more value for this company? Do I

[24:56] think that these managers are going to

[24:58] do a good job with the whole company

[25:00] that I'm part of? Or is it just kind of

[25:02] about me is what it comes down to. look

[25:04] for the organizational centered job and

[25:08] and try to align your incentives in that

[25:10] particular way and you'll have a much

[25:12] higher likelihood of not hopping between

[25:14] things and you're more likely to get a

[25:16] full turn of the spiral even if you are

[25:18] a spiral in this new career 7 to 12

[25:20] years that's what will give you the most

[25:22] uh satisfaction and the most longevity

[25:23] in the career. Now, next question. Will

[25:26] a change per se bring happiness or does

[25:31] happiness in life make it more likely

[25:33] that you'll get satisfaction in your

[25:35] job? You see what I'm saying here,

[25:37] right? I mean, there's all this stuff

[25:39] out there about work life balance. I've

[25:41] even mentioned it here. I don't like

[25:43] work life balance. I like work life

[25:44] integration where your job makes your

[25:46] life happier and your life makes your

[25:48] job happier because your job is part of

[25:50] your life. That's the way it's really

[25:52] supposed to work. That doesn't mean it's

[25:53] boundaryless. That doesn't mean you

[25:54] should be checking emails at 5:00 a.m.

[25:55] and 11:00 p.m. No, no, no. You shouldn't

[25:58] be doing that. You should be with your

[25:59] family and with your friends and and and

[26:02] reading the brothers Karamazov or

[26:04] something in in those off hours to be

[26:06] sure. But it should they should fortify

[26:08] and strengthen each other in very

[26:09] beautiful ways. But the question then

[26:12] still is if I'm happier outside of work,

[26:15] will it make my job change easier and

[26:17] better? Or is it just that the job

[26:19] change is going to make me happier? And

[26:21] the answer is both. The answer is both.

[26:23] You should to have to be more satisfied

[26:25] with your job, look for more life

[26:27] satisfaction outside your job. One of

[26:29] the biggest predictors of liking your

[26:31] job is liking your life. And and I guess

[26:34] it kind of makes sense, right? Because

[26:36] happy people are happy in all different

[26:38] parts of their lives. But it's really

[26:39] interesting because, you know, there are

[26:41] people that I find who say my home life

[26:43] is blissful and my work is drudgery. But

[26:46] it's pretty rare. And people in the same

[26:49] jobs, you'll find they're doing the same

[26:50] job. You know, like Mary and Paul are

[26:52] sitting in cubicles next to each other

[26:54] and they're doing data entry and Paul's

[26:56] like, "This is the worst. I want to jump

[26:58] out the window." And Mary's like, "This

[27:00] is a really, really good job. I like the

[27:01] people around me and I think I'm working

[27:03] for a company. I think it's pretty

[27:04] good." And it's not always really

[27:05] interesting. Sometimes it's boring, but

[27:07] but all in all, I'm really grateful to

[27:09] have this job. Why do they have these

[27:10] different orientations? And it has to do

[27:12] a lot more with the fact that Mary is

[27:14] more likely to have a happier life

[27:16] outside of work and Paul is likely to

[27:17] have an unhappier life outside of work.

[27:19] Now, you might be saying to yourself,

[27:20] it's because Paul's a naturally unhappy

[27:22] person. You've heard me say in the show

[27:23] that half of your happiness is genetic.

[27:26] You have a genetic proclivity. You know,

[27:28] your parents and grandparents gave you

[27:29] your base half of your baseline

[27:31] happiness. Literally, your mother made

[27:33] you unhappy. Sorry. Um, but it's not all

[27:36] that. A lot of what we find in the

[27:38] research is that that if you cultivate

[27:41] outside of work happiness, it bleeds

[27:43] into your work itself. And this is a

[27:46] really important thing to keep in mind

[27:48] because to for you to have a happier

[27:50] career, you need really good leisure

[27:53] hygiene. You need to take it really

[27:55] seriously. Here's the pattern that I see

[27:58] in my work. The people who work hard and

[28:02] are really exhausted and go home and

[28:04] don't do something generative and

[28:06] creative, but rather just scroll

[28:08] Instagram. These are the people who are

[28:11] unhappier about their non-work lives and

[28:13] they burn out more on their work as a

[28:15] result. You need to, as Steven CVY said

[28:18] in the famous seven habits of highly

[28:20] effective people, sharpen the saw. And

[28:22] that means that when you're not at work,

[28:24] you're reading, you're learning, you're

[28:27] loving, you're uh spending time doing

[28:31] things that are incredibly generative.

[28:33] You're developing your spirituality.

[28:35] You're doing serious things that don't

[28:37] happen to pay you and your hours outside

[28:40] work. And again, I'm going to I'm going

[28:41] to do a whole episode on leisure because

[28:44] structuring your leisure is so

[28:45] interesting and it can be so

[28:46] scientifically robust as well. But

[28:48] suffice it to say that if you're serious

[28:50] about your life outside work, your work

[28:52] is going to seem a lot happier and your

[28:54] job changes going to work better. Okay.

[28:56] Now, here's the third question. Does it

[28:59] matter why you change for the likelihood

[29:03] that your change is going to be

[29:04] successful and happy? And the answer is

[29:06] yes. So, there's two reasons to change

[29:08] your job. We'll call them push and pull.

[29:10] Now, pull is you want to do something

[29:13] else and so you quit. push is your boss

[29:17] says, "I think it's time for you to move

[29:18] on." For example, those are the two

[29:21] impetuses. And and you know perfectly

[29:23] that that when you're not in control,

[29:25] it's it's going to be harder. Now, I

[29:27] know a lot of people who've said, "My

[29:30] boss said that this wasn't a good fit

[29:32] and I had to go work someplace else and

[29:33] I was really really upset. I was really

[29:34] really mad." But by about two months

[29:36] into my new job, I realized that my boss

[29:38] was right and I told her that and and

[29:41] that's great when that happens. But in

[29:42] general, it it's more or less what you'd

[29:44] expect that when it's a push motivation

[29:47] that you don't control the timing and

[29:49] that's really uncomfortable. It can very

[29:51] inconvenient for your life and really it

[29:53] can be really hard on your family. When

[29:55] you don't feel like you have a sense of

[29:56] self-control that is cognitively a high

[29:59] load on you, then you worry about

[30:02] unemployment and and you're worried

[30:04] you're going to have to take something

[30:05] you don't like, it doesn't pay enough,

[30:06] etc. And and frankly, it's just really

[30:08] crummy for your self-esteem when your

[30:09] job goes away. um if even if it's not

[30:12] personal, it feels really really

[30:13] personal. And for all those reasons, the

[30:15] push motivation is much harder than the

[30:18] pull motivation. That's an important

[30:20] thing to keep in mind because I'm going

[30:22] to give you four things I want you to

[30:23] think about. And that's one of the

[30:24] things that I want you to be thinking

[30:26] about as you're contemplating a job

[30:27] change. Now, let's go back to the four

[30:29] career types. If you are feeling

[30:31] burnout, it probably means that you're

[30:34] spiral and that your spiral is turning.

[30:37] Kind of what it comes down to. And the

[30:39] reason is because the spiral turns when

[30:41] interest waines. Pay attention to that.

[30:45] You're not going to suddenly be like,

[30:46] "Well, grind more, work harder, you

[30:50] know, reignite the passion," which

[30:52] people talk about all the time. Fellow

[30:54] spirals, you're probably not going to.

[30:56] You're probably going to want to go look

[30:57] for a new thing. And thank God for the

[30:59] free enterprise system where we have

[31:00] options. I mean, not everybody has

[31:02] options all the time. And some people

[31:04] are way more privileged about that than

[31:06] others. Don't get me wrong. Some people

[31:07] can't do that. they can't do it. But a

[31:09] lot of you can. And what it takes is the

[31:12] imagination and the fortitude and the

[31:15] courage to say, "I think the spiral's

[31:17] turning. And how do I know? Because my

[31:19] gut is telling me I'm feeling a little

[31:22] dead inside. Time for me to go. Maybe I

[31:25] need to go study first. Maybe I need to

[31:28] move."

[31:29] But all that feeds into the fact that

[31:31] that that you're you're probably a

[31:33] spiral as opposed to the linear that the

[31:36] economy and the education establishment

[31:38] told you all along. You might not be

[31:40] that. So when it's time to change and

[31:43] incidentally maybe you're on a three or

[31:45] four year cycle isn't linear and it's

[31:47] time to change or maybe you're an expert

[31:50] and not of your own valition your career

[31:52] went away. you know, whatever happens,

[31:54] something you're you had layoffs or or

[31:56] you're transitory and you know, you met

[32:00] some the love of your life across the

[32:01] country, which is why you change your

[32:03] job. What should you to be thinking

[32:04] about with a job change? Here are four

[32:07] rules that govern the best possible job

[32:10] changes. Okay, here's the four things

[32:11] that you can do you should be thinking

[32:13] about to give you the highest likelihood

[32:14] of a very successful, very happy job.

[32:18] Number one, number one, manage your

[32:20] expectations. Spirals in particular are

[32:24] optimists and I love that. But optimism

[32:28] is not the same thing as hope. Optimism

[32:30] is a probability um prediction. It's I

[32:35] think things are going to be good.

[32:37] Right? I predict things are going to be

[32:38] good. Hope is not that by the way. Hope

[32:41] means something good can be done and I

[32:43] can do it. That's what hope is. Hope is

[32:45] active. That's the reason that hope is a

[32:47] theological virtue. In the New

[32:48] Testament, Paul talks about you know St.

[32:50] Paul talks about faith, hope, and

[32:52] charity, right? He talks about these are

[32:54] the three things, the three, you know,

[32:56] these three theological virtues. He

[32:58] doesn't talk about faith, optimism, and

[33:01] love. No, he talks about faith, hope,

[33:03] and love. Faith, hope, and charity. So,

[33:06] there's a natural tendency if you're a

[33:08] spiral to be looking into the future and

[33:10] say, "That's going to be great. It's

[33:11] going to be so great. It's going to be

[33:12] so great." And it is going to be great

[33:15] some of the time, but be realistic about

[33:18] the fact that, you know, you're going to

[33:19] move from a 4.5 to a six. And if you're

[33:22] organization centric, then you can

[33:24] actually you'll go down a little bit as

[33:26] the honeymoon is over, but you can start

[33:27] back up again. But it's not as if you're

[33:29] going to go it's going to be the

[33:30] permanent seven because the money's so

[33:32] good and it's so interesting. You're

[33:33] going to love it forever. It's a job.

[33:36] It's a normal thing to not have it be

[33:38] perfect and a perfect part of your life.

[33:40] So keep that in mind. manage your

[33:42] expectations, remember what things were

[33:44] like in the past and and don't pretend

[33:46] that it's going to be Shangrila, this

[33:48] perfection. That's just a grown-up thing

[33:50] to do. And uh I struggle with that. Um

[33:53] but the more that I do that, the better

[33:54] off I am. Second, look for your

[33:57] happiness first outside your job, right?

[34:01] I mean, this is in general something

[34:03] that's important because you know your

[34:05] job is going to change, but you're

[34:06] always going to come home to you, right?

[34:08] I mean, and so that therefore coming

[34:11] home to you, the you that's at home,

[34:13] that's not at work, that circumstance,

[34:15] that ecosystem should be optimized as

[34:17] much as you possibly can. Always work on

[34:19] that first because then then no matter

[34:21] what you're doing, whether it's the

[34:23] first part of the spiral, the end part

[34:24] of the spiral, whether you're burning

[34:27] out or fresh in your job, wherever you

[34:29] are, whether you're in the honeymoon or

[34:30] not, it's going to be better than it

[34:32] would have been otherwise. you're going

[34:33] to get an extra point or two in that

[34:34] liyker scale if you're working seriously

[34:37] about your non-work life. Look for

[34:39] happiness outside work. Don't look for

[34:42] your life happiness in your work

[34:45] exclusively. On the contrary, look for

[34:48] your work satisfaction in your nonwork

[34:51] life by setting it up and and taking

[34:53] care of your happiness hygiene. Third,

[34:57] this is a hard one. Jump before you're

[34:59] pushed. Most people know. I mean,

[35:02] sometimes there's, you know, out of the

[35:04] blue layoffs in your company or, you

[35:07] know, you get a new boss and the boss is

[35:09] a jerk and they come around and like you

[35:10] out out. But most of the time when

[35:12] people talk about having gotten rifted

[35:15] or, you know, losing their job for any

[35:17] reason. In retrospect, there were a lot

[35:20] of signs and they were hoping for the

[35:21] best. Hope for the best. I guess I guess

[35:23] that's maybe optimism is how I better

[35:27] how I should put it. how based on how I

[35:29] defined that a minute ago. But most

[35:31] people know and and pay attention to

[35:33] that because once again, if it's on the

[35:36] pull side, you're in charge. If it's on

[35:37] the push side, you're not. And push is a

[35:40] lot harder on you than pull. I recommend

[35:42] that when things are getting really,

[35:44] really dicey. If you can, you start

[35:46] looking at your options. That's just a

[35:48] prudent thing to do with respect to the

[35:50] likelihood of having a happy transition

[35:52] is what it comes down to. You can't

[35:54] always do it. I got it. But you can more

[35:57] than you think. And by keeping your eyes

[35:59] open and playing heads up ball, that's

[36:01] just prudential judgment,

[36:04] which is not a theological virtue. It's

[36:06] a cardinal virtue if you're following

[36:08] the philosophy that I'm laying down

[36:10] here. And last but not least is don't be

[36:13] afraid. Change is great. Change is good.

[36:16] Now again, if you are a riskaverse

[36:17] person person or excessively

[36:19] conscientious, I guess there's no such

[36:21] thing as excessively conscientious.

[36:22] really really conscientious like my dear

[36:24] old dad, it can make you really

[36:26] reluctant and and even fearful of job

[36:29] changes. But don't be afraid because

[36:31] change is super healthy. Change is super

[36:34] good. I'm talking to my students all the

[36:35] time. Yeah, it's okay to quit your job.

[36:38] It's fine to quit your job. Don't quit

[36:40] your job every six months because it's

[36:41] going to be on your resume that you're a

[36:42] job hopper and that's bad for you. Plus,

[36:44] you'll never be able to dig in. I got

[36:45] it. I mean, this is all within the

[36:47] boundaries of what makes sense, but you

[36:50] know, especially if you're a spiral.

[36:52] Walk away. Walk away. I said this in a

[36:56] lecture last year and and one of my

[36:58] smart, savvy Harvard Business School

[36:59] students, wonderful. They're great. She

[37:02] puts up her hand and said, "Professor,

[37:05] in last unit, you were talking about

[37:07] family dynamics and you talked about how

[37:09] you can how you can have a higher

[37:11] likelihood of having a marriage that

[37:13] lasts for a lifetime. I said, 'Yep. He

[37:16] said, 'In this unit, you're talking

[37:19] about careers and you're encouraging us

[37:21] to walk away when we lose interest.

[37:25] Why don't you talk to us about building

[37:27] a career that lasts a lifetime, but you

[37:29] know, having a marriage that you change

[37:31] every 7 to 12 years? I said, that is a

[37:34] smart question. And there's an answer to

[37:36] that. There's an answer to that because

[37:38] the spiral marriage pattern doesn't lead

[37:41] to ultimate happiness for the very

[37:44] reason that a lifelong partner, the

[37:46] person on whom you will be laying your

[37:49] eyes as you take your dying breath, is

[37:52] most associated with happiness. Now, it

[37:53] doesn't work out for everybody. I'll do

[37:55] an episode. I'm going to do a bunch of

[37:56] episodes coming up on love and love and

[37:58] happiness and staying in love, etc.

[38:00] That's a really interesting topic and

[38:02] not everybody can have that. But if you

[38:04] can, that's really worth dedicating

[38:06] yourself to and is very different than

[38:09] the pattern that you experience in the

[38:11] workplace in no small part because the

[38:14] relationships that you have in the

[38:15] workplace can be wonderful. They can be

[38:17] satisfying. They can be great. But your

[38:19] colleagues at work are not most likely

[38:22] going to be the people that are around

[38:24] your bedside when you're taking your

[38:26] dying breath. This is a different kind

[38:28] of relationship. They're what Aristotle

[38:30] calls friendships of transaction, useful

[38:33] friends, deal friends. Your ultimate

[38:36] real friend, if you're blessed to have

[38:38] it, is the is your lifelong partner. And

[38:41] that's why it's a different species of

[38:43] problem.

[38:45] So that's worth keeping in mind. And and

[38:47] again, every case is different and

[38:50] there's aspiration

[38:52] and sometimes it works out. But these

[38:54] are the patterns that we need to look at

[38:56] so that we can design our lives as

[38:57] optimally as we possibly can. Now, what

[39:00] I'm going to talk about in a future

[39:01] episode is when you're getting ready to

[39:03] change jobs, what should you be looking

[39:05] for? I mean, what should you be looking

[39:07] for to know that the next opportunity is

[39:10] the right opportunity? But I'm going to

[39:12] leave that for a future episode. Let me

[39:15] sum up. I've talked here about the four

[39:19] career types and and I've said that most

[39:21] of you were told that you're linears and

[39:23] that you should be really motivated and

[39:24] ambitious to go up that line, but you

[39:27] might not be a linear. You're probably

[39:30] not the expert career pattern, which is

[39:32] your father, mother, grandparents. You

[39:35] might be, but that's that steady state

[39:38] kind of career. You're probably not a

[39:40] transitory. you wouldn't be watching

[39:41] this podcast in the first place. But

[39:43] that's okay, too. If you are, which is

[39:44] kind of up and down and here and there

[39:45] and back and forth and changing a lot.

[39:47] Most likely, if you're not that linear,

[39:50] which people told you you were, it's

[39:51] because you're a spiral where you're

[39:53] creating on the canvas of your life, a

[39:56] painting that is a series of 7 to 12

[39:58] year scenarios, professional scenarios.

[40:01] Sometimes you make more, sometimes you

[40:03] make less. Sometimes you do this,

[40:05] sometimes that changing. It's an

[40:07] adventure. It's a new dawn. once or once

[40:10] a decade or so. And that's a very very

[40:12] beautiful thing. And if you are, you

[40:14] need to be you need to be pretty

[40:16] comfortable with what major changes are

[40:18] all about. And I've given you a whole

[40:20] bunch of ideas on how to do that. How to

[40:22] manage your expectations, how to see

[40:25] your career with respect to organization

[40:26] as opposed to self, how to make sure

[40:28] that you are focusing on the happiness

[40:31] of your life and not just the happiness

[40:32] of your job. And then you know um last

[40:36] but not least if you can making sure

[40:38] that it's about pull and not push. And

[40:40] then I gave you these rules the four

[40:42] rules once again. Manage your

[40:43] expectations.

[40:44] Look for happiness outside of work

[40:46] first. Jump before you're pushed

[40:50] and fear not.

[40:52] All right. Uh a couple of questions. We

[40:54] got some good ones this week. Um I got

[40:55] this one. You know I got I got to name

[40:57] this person um on by email and this came

[41:00] in at office hours.com. This is from

[41:02] Zeus Bear. Thank you, Zeus Bear. Cool

[41:05] name, Zeus Bear. Um, my kids are grown

[41:08] now. And although I've never worked, my

[41:11] main job since being as a child, um, was

[41:13] as a caregiver to other people, now that

[41:15] my kids are grown up, people keep saying

[41:17] I need to use my education and talents

[41:18] and go to work. I have a lot of ideas,

[41:21] but I'm afraid, do I know where to

[41:23] start? 53 years old. What should I do?

[41:28] Well, there's one piece of information

[41:29] that I don't know, which is, do you need

[41:31] money? Right? Because, you know, from

[41:33] what you've told me here, you might

[41:35] actually be relatively financially

[41:37] independent in the context of your

[41:39] family. You might be married to somebody

[41:41] who who um is earning as much money as

[41:43] your family needs, for example, because

[41:44] you've been doing caregiving, children,

[41:46] who've now moved out. If you need money

[41:49] for that, at least some money, one of

[41:52] the things that I recommend is actually

[41:54] figuring out a way to work with people

[41:56] that you you know, providing something

[41:58] that they need and where they trust you

[42:01] because they know you. This is a really

[42:03] good introduction into the workforce.

[42:04] You have somebody who has a retail

[42:07] establishment say, "Hey, can I give you

[42:08] a hand?" This is a really good way to do

[42:10] it. you know, one of my kids as a as a

[42:12] first job um went and worked for the

[42:15] father of a dear friend of mine who had

[42:17] a farm and lived in the farmer's

[42:19] basement and and learned how to become a

[42:21] farm hand. And it's just based on these

[42:23] relationships and it was a good start.

[42:25] It was a really really good start to his

[42:27] career. Learned a lot of job skills and

[42:29] was with people who knew him. It wasn't

[42:31] this transactional relationship. It was,

[42:33] you know, a little bit based on

[42:34] friendship. And that's a good

[42:35] introduction to the workforce. If you

[42:36] don't need money, I really recommend

[42:38] volunteering because there's tons of

[42:40] people, Zeus bear, and they need you.

[42:43] They need your talents. They need your

[42:45] energy. And at 53, you got you got

[42:48] you're loaded for bear, Zeus bear,

[42:51] sorry. And and figuring out how to

[42:52] volunteer in your community can be a

[42:54] real joy. Who knows? That might be

[42:56] vocationally something you've been

[42:57] looking for for a big part of your life.

[42:59] Those are great questions. Keep them

[43:01] coming, my friends. Thank you so much

[43:03] for participating in the show. Um, if

[43:06] you've got comments, leave the comments

[43:07] below, whether you're watching this on

[43:09] YouTube or listening on Spotify or

[43:10] Apple. We do read the comments and they

[43:12] really give us a lot of ideas and and we

[43:14] appreciate it because we want to make

[43:15] the show better and better as weeks go

[43:17] on. Give us suggestions for people you'd

[43:19] like for me to talk to as guests cuz I

[43:21] like doing that too. Those are some of

[43:22] the really fun conversations and some of

[43:24] the most successful shows that we've had

[43:25] so far. Um, like and subscribe. pound

[43:28] the subscribe button so it comes to you

[43:30] automatically and it the algorithm gods

[43:32] actually start smiling on us and and and

[43:34] we get more traffic and this gets in

[43:35] front of people who haven't heard of us

[43:36] before which is really great. Um follow

[43:39] me on Instagram, on LinkedIn, on

[43:40] whatever your social media platform of

[43:42] choice is and you'll get all kinds of

[43:44] little short, you know, diddies and and

[43:46] clips and things of not just this show

[43:48] but a lot of other things that I'm doing

[43:50] in media. And in the meantime, order the

[43:51] happiness files, the handsome yellow

[43:53] book behind me right now for 33 essays.

[43:56] um as well as reading my colony in the

[43:58] Atlantic. Please pass these ideas on to

[43:59] other people because the world needs to

[44:00] be a happier place and it starts with

[44:02] all of us becoming happiness teachers. I

[44:04] know you can do it. Hope you enjoy it

[44:07] and I'll see you next week.

Arthur Brooks
AuthorArthur Brooks

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Got Questions?

Frequently Asked Questions

The four career types, based on research by psychologist Michael Driver, are: linear (moving steadily upward through promotions), expert (staying in one role with modest raises for decades), spiral (changing jobs every few years across different fields or levels), and transitory (moving between unstable gigs with no fixed anchor). Your natural type depends on your psychology and values.
Research shows that job satisfaction initially spikes when changing jobs (honeymoon effect) but then drops within six months to a year, often below satisfaction in the previous role. Happiness after a job change depends more on whether you've built a strong life outside work and whether you're moving toward opportunity (pull) versus fleeing problems (push).
Arthur Brooks recommends 'work-life integration' over 'work-life balance'—recognizing that your job is part of your life and the two influence each other. Research shows that people who cultivate happiness outside work through leisure, relationships, and meaningful activities report higher job satisfaction, suggesting external happiness bleeds into work success.
The biggest predictor of job satisfaction is whether you adopt an organization-centered mindset (focusing on the company's mission) versus a self-centered one (focusing on what you get out of it). Additionally, happiness outside work, managing expectations about the honeymoon period wearing off, and being pulled toward (not pushed away from) a new role all significantly affect satisfaction.
Not immediately. The research suggests that changing jobs when you're desperate or burned out (being pushed) leads to worse outcomes than changing from a position of stability (jumping before you're pushed). Before switching roles, invest in building happiness outside work and address what's causing the burnout, so you're making a clear choice rather than an escape.
Reflect on what motivates you: Do you crave advancement and higher status (linear)? Do you want security and mastery in one domain (expert)? Do you want variety and the chance to explore different fields (spiral)? Or do you thrive on constant change and freedom (transitory)? Your natural type isn't about what industry you're in, but how your career structure should evolve.
Leisure—regular, purposeful engagement in activities that bring joy or rest—builds the foundation of life satisfaction that protects and supports job satisfaction. People with no real leisure, who work constantly or fill their time with obligations, cannot build the external happiness that makes them resilient and content in their work.

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