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Inspiration

Forgiveness Through Inquiry: QuestioningBeliefs About Others

Byron Katie
Byron Katie
May 30, 2018
11 min de leitura

Forgiveness is not about excusing harmful behavior or achieving an emotional state of grace toward someone who wronged you. Rather, it is the recognition that the story you constructed about another person—the judgments, assumptions, and negative beliefs you layered onto them—was your own mental creation, not an accurate reflection of who they are. Byron Katie explains that forgiveness emerges naturally through inquiry into these beliefs using her method called The Work. When you examine and question the "post-its" (mental sticky notes) you have placed on someone, you remove the separation you created in your own mind. The other person doesn't change; your perception does. This shift dissolves resentment, reconnects you with the other person, and reveals that if you are not at peace with someone, that disconnection originates from your own unexamined thoughts.

Leitura · 9 seções

What Are the "Post-Its" We Place on Others?

Katie uses the metaphor of mental post-it notes to describe the judgments and assumptions we attach to people. When you look at another person and think they don't like me, they're unfair, they don't really want me here, or they're placating me, you are placing invisible stickies on them. These thoughts spin in your mind, and you begin to believe them as fact. The crucial insight is that these post-its are your own mental productions, not descriptions of the other person's reality.

Katie illustrates this with a personal example: she imagined that Armin (the interviewer) didn't genuinely want her on his program and that someone must have pressured him to invite her. She spun an entire narrative out of her own paranoid mind at that moment. This story had no basis in Armin's actual feelings or intentions; it was entirely her construction. Yet this unexamined thought would have led her to decline his future interview requests, creating real separation based on a fiction she believed.

The critical distinction Katie makes is this: "I'm not forgiving you for being the person I believed you to be. But that's not you." Forgiveness, then, is not about condoning the person you imagined; it is about recognizing that the person you imagined never existed. The person in front of you remains untouched by your mental projections.

How Does The Work Facilitate Forgiveness?

The Work is Katie's four-question inquiry process designed to examine and unravel the thoughts that separate us from others. The first step is to write down all the judgments and assumptions you have about the person—transfer all those post-its onto a worksheet called the Judge-Your-Neighbor Worksheet. This externalization is crucial; it takes the swirling thoughts in your head and puts them on paper where you can look at them objectively.

Once the judgments are written down, you ask four questions about each one:

  • Is it true?
  • Can you absolutely know it's true?
  • How do you react when you believe this thought?
  • Who would you be without this thought?

Then comes the turnaround: you reverse the thought to see its opposite. If you believed he doesn't like me, you turn it around to I don't like him or I don't like myself. This reversal is not about positive thinking or denial; it is about opening yourself to other possibilities your mind had closed off.

What is remarkable, Katie says, is that when you work through this inquiry on judgments you hold about another person, you often discover a state of connectedness with them. "It is shocking to see that person, to sit with that... Let's say I've done the work on you out of that mind that I put on you, I've done the work on you, question those thoughts, and that the next time I see you I'm shocked at how intimate we are together." You didn't change; the other person didn't change. Only your perception shifted because you questioned what you believed.

Who Is Responsible for Separation?

Katie makes a radical claim: "No one can separate me from another human being; I'm the only one who can do that." If you are not connected to someone, if there is distance or resentment between you, that disconnection originates from your own unexamined thoughts. The other person is not creating that gap; your beliefs about them are.

This is not victim-blaming in the conventional sense. Rather, it is a recognition of where actual power lies. You cannot control how others think or behave. But you have complete access to your own thoughts—the judgments, assumptions, and stories you believe about others. That is where your power to change your life lives.

Armin, the interviewer, observes that the hardest part of forgiveness is "giving up the perceived need to be right, to attack, to judge, and to not feel how much it hurts." Katie agrees and adds that wanting to be right is itself a clue that work needs to be done. "If I want to be right, that's my first clue that it's time for me to identify what I'm thinking and believing about this other human being." The attachment to being right indicates that you are invested in a story about someone else, and that investment keeps you separate from them.

What About Genuine Harm? Does Physical Pain or Hurt Still Matter?

The conversation moves into more challenging territory when Armin asks what happens when someone actually does hurt you—calls you names, neglects you, or even strikes you physically. Katie's response is nuanced. She acknowledges that physical bodies are real and can be hurt. However, she distinguishes between the physical sensation and the story we layer onto it.

If someone hits you, the physical impact is real. But if you begin constructing a story—I'm afraid of being hit again, this person is dangerous, I can't trust anyone—then the suffering expands beyond the physical event into the realm of your unexamined thoughts. The fear you are experiencing is often about the thought he's going to hit me, not the present moment reality. As Katie notes, "that doesn't hurt"—the imagined future blow causes fear, but the fear itself is a mental creation about something that hasn't happened yet.

This does not mean physical harm is acceptable or that you should remain in an unsafe situation. Katie's point is that your psychological and emotional recovery depends not on the other person changing but on you questioning the story you have constructed around the event. You can recognize that someone behaved harmfully and remove yourself from the situation while simultaneously examining the ongoing thoughts and fears you are attaching to that person.

How Do You Make Amends Sincerely?

Katie addresses the question of apology and making things right. If you have done something unkind out of your unexamined, attacking mind, the next step after questioning your own beliefs is to admit what you have done, apologize sincerely, and make it right when possible. "If I've gossiped about you, I've said something unkind about you, if I've influenced someone negatively on you, then that's just my crazy. And I need to make that right and go back to those people and say, you know, I was nuts. And this man is a kind man, a good man."

But the apology must be sincere. Katie is adamant about this: "if it's not sincere, I certainly wouldn't do it." This is a humbling stance for the ego, because it means you must have genuinely shifted your perception before you can offer a truthful apology. You cannot apologize effectively while still believing the post-its you placed on someone. The apology only becomes authentic once you have done your own work and actually see the person differently.

This is what Katie calls "picking up the bread crumbs"—like Hansel and Gretel leaving crumbs to find their way home, we leave a trail of unkind actions and words when we act from an unquestioned, attacking mind. Katie's practice is to identify those crumbs and pick them up by making amends. "That way people can live in the present without a past."

How Does Forgiveness Change Your Identity?

One of the most profound shifts that occurs through The Work is a change in how you see yourself. Katie notes that her identity was built on knowing: "My identity is sitting with this person I'm putting Post-its on, and my identity is I'm the one that knows." She believed she knew that others were unkind, unfair, or disingenuous. This identity—of being right, of being the one who understands the truth about others—was defended at great cost.

But when you question those judgments and the post-its fall away, your identity unravels too. The self that was defended, that was right, that knew the worst about others—that self is revealed to be a construct. "My true nature is available, and so yours is available." Your authentic self, unclouded by defended positions and certainties, becomes accessible.

Katie observes that defending the identity of being right "takes defense. It takes a life of defending. And defense is the first act of war." This is not abstract; it shapes how you move through the world. When you are defending your rightness about someone, you are engaged in a low-grade war with them in your own mind. Forgiveness is the cessation of that internal war.

What Is the Relationship Between Self-Judgment and Judgment of Others?

A crucial insight Katie brings forward is that your judgment of others is inseparable from your judgment of yourself. "If I don't like you I don't like me. So you're the key to my own heart." This does not mean you cause others' behavior or that you are responsible for their choices. Rather, it means that the mental stance you take toward them reflects your stance toward yourself. When you judge someone harshly, you are not at peace with yourself. When you soften your view of them through inquiry, you naturally soften your view of yourself.

This is why Katie emphasizes doing her own work. "It's enough to know what's right for me in my life. It's a full time job. But I have to like me to deal with me." The work of forgiveness, then, is also the work of self-compassion. You are not forgiving others for your sake alone; you are liberating yourself.

Can Forgiveness Actually Be Completed?

Armin asks whether the process of forgiveness through The Work can truly be completed, and Katie answers yes—but with a caveat. The process can be completed for any particular grievance you work on. You can take a specific judgment, work through The Work with it, and reach a genuine state of forgiveness and connection. But Katie is humble about her own ongoing practice: "I never know myself if it's completed. That's the beautiful thing about life, it will show me what I've missed."

She speaks of the "enlightened mind" as one that has nothing to forgive because it is beyond the kind of judgment that creates the need for forgiveness in the first place. But even then, Katie suggests, life itself continues to be a teacher, revealing blind spots and unquestioned beliefs as they arise.

Where to Go From Here

If you find yourself holding resentment toward someone, in pain about something they did, or at odds in a relationship, Katie's invitation is concrete: write down everything you believe about that person, all the judgments and assumptions, on a piece of paper. Then take those statements through The Work's four questions. Notice what shifts in how you see them and how you feel. You can find The Work for free at thework.com, along with worksheets and guidance.

The deeper invitation is to examine how being right about others has cost you—in peace of mind, in connection, in the energy required to defend a position. Consider what it would feel like to meet people as they actually are, rather than as the story your mind has constructed. Forgiveness, Katie teaches, is not something you do to benefit someone else. It is the return to your own nature, your own capacity for connection and authenticity. The other person was never your enemy; the enemy was always the unquestioned story you believed about them.

Transcript

[0:00] - Hello, Katie.

[0:01] - Hi, Armin, hi.

[0:03] Good to see you.

[0:04] - How are you?

[0:05] So wonderful to have you with us.

[0:07] - Well, it's a privilege,

[0:10] and thank you for including me.

[0:12] - Absolutely.

[0:13] So welcome to the first German online forgiveness

[0:16] conference.

[0:17] - Oh, well, you know, that's a beautiful thing to present

[0:21] to people, and thank you for that.

[0:22] We can use a lot of forgiveness.

[0:25] - I think so too.

[0:27] That's one motivation why we do it.

[0:29] We really wanna bring it out there

[0:31] and kind of like make it a common good,

[0:36] so to speak.

[0:38] Because we think it's very powerful.

[0:41] And of course that's why we thought about you.

[0:46] And I'm so excited to hear from you,

[0:50] what do you think about forgiveness?

[0:52] How you do it, what you've experienced and so on.

[0:55] - Yeah.

[0:57] So, forgiveness...

[1:02] For me,

[1:03] is, you know, my job is to share inquiry in the world.

[1:08] So forgiveness to me is about

[1:14] seeing that what I

[1:17] believed happened

[1:20] didn't necessarily happen.

[1:25] So...

[1:26] - Just in 99% if the cases, that's all.

[1:30] - Well, you know, 99, 99999.99.

[1:34] Yeah.

[1:35] Yeah, yeah, it's just so true.

[1:38] And what I...

[1:41] It's like there you are, this perfect man

[1:44] in front of me.

[1:45] And if I am thinking,

[1:49] if I'm putting Post-its on you,

[1:52] mental Post-its on you,

[1:54] these stickies,

[1:55] and like, he doesn't like me.

[2:01] He didn't really want me on his program today.

[2:06] I'm sure someone made him do it.

[2:09] I mean that's a little ridiculous.

[2:11] I don't have very...

[2:13] I'm not coming with any great hypothetical here.

[2:18] But I put all those negative Post-its on you

[2:20] out of my own paranoid mind at the moment.

[2:24] And so the next time you ask me for an interview,

[2:28] I tell my office, oh no,

[2:32] just let him know that I'm unavailable.

[2:37] And so I am not forgiving you

[2:43] for being the person I believed you to be.

[2:48] But that's not you.

[2:53] So if I take all those Post-its

[2:55] and I put them on a judgmental worksheet,

[2:57] all those Post-its I put on you,

[3:00] what I believed onto you,

[3:03] and I write them down

[3:05] and I question those Post-its,

[3:07] those concepts, those judgments on you,

[3:11] then you remain completely free

[3:16] and I'm the only one I wouldn't want,

[3:20] I wouldn't want myself to be interviewed

[3:23] by anyone if I'm in that state of mind.

[3:27] (Armin laughs)

[3:28] And so I have a lot of work to do

[3:30] before I can say yes to an interview like this

[3:34] because I'm doing it to you.

[3:37] You're never doing it to me.

[3:40] That's forgiveness.

[3:41] Seeing what I thought happened didn't.

[3:45] He doesn't like what I say.

[3:48] He...

[3:51] I know he, blah blah blah blah blah blah.

[3:55] Those are the stickies, the Post-its

[3:57] that I'm talking about that we put on people.

[4:00] So the mind is just spinning,

[4:02] and we're really believing some of those,

[4:05] or a lot of those thoughts.

[4:07] So now I've got, let's say, a strong word,

[4:10] but an enemy.

[4:13] And you're not.

[4:16] You are not.

[4:17] I'm deluded.

[4:19] So this is this kind of inquiry,

[4:23] we not only find ourselves

[4:27] left in a state of forgiveness,

[4:30] but it is shocking to see that person,

[4:33] to sit with that...

[4:37] Let's say I've done the work on you

[4:38] out of that mind that I put on you,

[4:43] I've done the work on you,

[4:44] question those thoughts,

[4:46] and that the next time I see you

[4:48] I'm shocked at how intimate we are together.

[4:52] And so there's nothing between us, I'm connected.

[4:56] But who took care of that?

[4:58] You didn't change.

[5:00] I questioned what I believed about you,

[5:03] and forgiveness happened.

[5:05] And there's not even a little,

[5:07] not even a little...

[5:10] there's just no evidence of it left.

[5:14] I can remember it, but it's laughable.

[5:19] And that is, laughter is good between friends.

[5:24] And that's, Armin, why I say

[5:27] no one, no one

[5:30] can separate me from them.

[5:34] I'm the only one that can separate me

[5:37] from another human being.

[5:39] And if I am not connected,

[5:42] then that's on me.

[5:44] I look at what I'm thinking and believing,

[5:47] I questioned that, I turn it around,

[5:49] opposites, for those of you the don't know,

[5:52] the work's always free at thework.com.

[5:54] And I turn it around,

[5:59] and I meet you again.

[6:02] And if I've done anything to hurt you

[6:05] out of that unkind mind,

[6:07] the next time I see you I admit it,

[6:11] I apologize.

[6:13] And all the bread crumbs are gone.

[6:15] All those oast bread crumbs, Hansel and Gretel,

[6:18] where they left all the bread crumbs.

[6:20] So my life is about picking up those bread crumbs,

[6:23] all of them that appear,

[6:26] and then if I drop another one, pick it up.

[6:30] That way people can live in the present

[6:33] without a past.

[6:36] - Yeah, wonderful.

[6:38] I was just gonna say it's an inside job,

[6:40] which it is, taking all those Post-its,

[6:44] those sticky notes away.

[6:45] And I really liked what you said

[6:49] about maybe, possibly hurting someone else

[6:53] by this attacking and awful mind of mine.

[6:59] So then it also,

[7:01] well, it also starts with an inside job,

[7:03] like admitting.

[7:05] First I admit it to myself

[7:07] that I might have done something.

[7:09] But then I admit it to him or her,

[7:12] and that's like,

[7:14] that's a huge honesty.

[7:17] - Well, it's very humbling.

[7:19] - Oh yeah.

[7:21] - It's quite a turnaround for the ego.

[7:23] And if it's not sincere, I certainly wouldn't do it.

[7:28] But if I'm thinking,

[7:31] so I want until I am,

[7:33] and admit it and apologize and I make it right

[7:37] where I can, like if I've gossiped about you,

[7:40] I've said something unkind about you,

[7:42] if I've influenced someone negatively on you,

[7:46] then that's just my crazy.

[7:48] And I need to make that right and go back to those people

[7:52] and say, you know, I was nuts.

[7:56] And this man is a kind man,

[8:02] a good man.

[8:02] I'd be telling the truth,

[8:05] because I have really done my work.

[8:11] - So the hardest part probably is

[8:14] giving up the perceived need to be right

[8:20] or to attack or to, also to separate.

[8:23] Well, separation is probably an effect

[8:27] of wanting to be right and wanting to judge.

[8:30] Probably not wanting to feel how hard it hurts.

[8:34] - Yes.

[8:35] And also if I want to be right,

[8:37] that's my first clue, there's an attachment there,

[8:41] that's my first clue, that you know,

[8:43] it's time for me to identify what I'm thinking

[8:46] and believing about this other human being.

[8:48] And write those thoughts down,

[8:49] those judgments and assumptions

[8:51] and question them and turn them around.

[8:53] And that's the only way I know

[8:55] to turn my life around

[8:57] and to see people as they really are

[9:00] as opposed to who I believed them to be

[9:02] prior to investigation.

[9:07] No enemy,

[9:08] no enemy,

[9:10] no enemy,

[9:12] no enemy.

[9:13] If I have an enemy that's on me,

[9:15] not the other way around.

[9:17] So we're talking about complete forgiveness here,

[9:20] total forgiveness.

[9:21] - Yeah, yeah.

[9:23] Which is a process obviously, because it takes time,

[9:27] but...

[9:28] - It sure does.

[9:29] - Yes.

[9:30] Of course.

[9:31] But it's a process that you can complete, right?

[9:35] - Yes, it is.

[9:36] - And that's the good news.

[9:38] - And you know, it's,

[9:40] I never know myself if it's completed.

[9:43] That's the beautiful thing about life,

[9:45] it will show me what I've missed.

[9:47] That's what life's all about.

[9:48] The enlightened mind.

[9:51] The enlightened mind has nothing to forgive.

[9:55] It's beyond judgment.

[10:02] - And well, I'm guessing another effect...

[10:06] - Or the kind of judgment we're talking about

[10:08] that would leave need for forgiveness.

[10:13] - Mm-hm.

[10:14] And I'm guessing, like the self image,

[10:18] how I conceive myself also changes

[10:22] bit by bit when I'm doing this work, right?

[10:25] - Oh my goodness, yes.

[10:27] My identity...

[10:29] My identity is sitting with this person

[10:33] I'm putting Post-its on,

[10:34] and my identity is I'm the one that knows.

[10:38] And I know that you're unkind, you're unfair,

[10:42] you don't like me.

[10:43] You're just placating me.

[10:45] You know, et cetera, et cetera.

[10:47] And I do the work and those Post-its

[10:50] are off of you, they're gone.

[10:53] And I'm connected.

[10:56] I'm connected.

[10:57] My true nature is available,

[11:01] and so yours is available.

[11:05] But this identity I had, I'm the one that's right,

[11:08] that's hard.

[11:10] That's really hard.

[11:12] It takes defense.

[11:13] It takes a life of defending.

[11:15] And defense is the first act of war.

[11:18] So there's the clue for that.

[11:21] - Yeah.

[11:24] - This being right

[11:26] is being...

[11:29] It is a being identified.

[11:33] And unquestioned mind.

[11:35] I have no way of knowing,

[11:38] you know, when I'm right about another human being.

[11:41] It's enough to know what's right for me in my life.

[11:44] It's a full time job.

[11:47] But I have to like me

[11:50] to deal with me.

[11:52] And if I don't like you I don't like me.

[11:55] So you're the key to my own heart.

[11:57] - Yeah.

[11:58] Wonderful.

[12:01] So the things that seem to happen to us,

[12:03] like if we put it up a notch,

[12:06] you said, like, you have this image of someone

[12:10] who hasn't done anything to you,

[12:12] but let's say someone does something to you.

[12:15] For example, calls you names

[12:18] or neglects you

[12:19] or you understand where I'm getting,

[12:25] who slaps you.

[12:26] - Yeah, yeah.

[12:28] If someone slaps me, what I love about that

[12:31] is it's over.

[12:33] I mean it's over.

[12:35] Now if he's going to slap me,

[12:38] am I okay in this moment?

[12:39] Like here's my face and here's his hand,

[12:42] am I okay in this moment?

[12:43] Am I still okay?

[12:46] Am I still okay?

[12:48] And then that happens,

[12:49] and without a past, am I okay?

[12:51] Without a past, am I okay?

[12:56] So without that,

[12:58] the slap only hurts when I'm living in the past.

[13:03] And it's only feared when I anticipate

[13:05] that he's gonna hit me.

[13:07] So without the past or future,

[13:10] without remembering or anticipation,

[13:12] where's the fault on him?

[13:15] So I'm creating the fault on him.

[13:19] So the next time I see you,

[13:23] I'll recall that,

[13:26] but I won't recall attacking you.

[13:31] Or saying, oh, you hurt me.

[13:34] Well, my remembering and anticipating is what hurt me,

[13:37] that doesn't hurt.

[13:42] - Wow.

[13:43] That's radical.

[13:44] I like it.

[13:45] - So there's nothing to forgive.

[13:49] Still.

[13:51] You hit me.

[13:52] You're not my enemy.

[13:53] What I'm believing about you

[13:54] is that is you perceive that it's not you.

[14:00] So if I'm afraid of you, I'm not connected,

[14:05] and I can't even talk to you

[14:07] about, you know, what were you thinking

[14:12] when you hit me?

[14:13] Have I done something to harm you?

[14:16] Or maybe I look at you

[14:18] and think, you know,

[14:21] and he hit me and he may just

[14:24] not wanna talk to me,

[14:26] and I go on about my way.

[14:29] But and if someone hits me,

[14:32] it doesn't mean that,

[14:35] people listening to this,

[14:36] it doesn't mean you're not gonna report it.

[14:38] It doesn't mean any of that.

[14:40] It's just that no enemy inside,

[14:43] complete forgiveness.

[14:45] Again, forgiveness is...

[14:50] Holding those Post-its on him

[14:52] that I was believing from past future.

[14:54] And if someone says, what did he do to you?

[14:57] He hit me.

[15:00] And that's, you know, he hit me.

[15:04] It's over.

[15:06] I mean inside of me, I just saw him hit you.

[15:09] How do you feel about that?

[15:10] Oh, you know, I feel like it's over.

[15:12] But in an unquestioned mind,

[15:15] how do you feel about him?

[15:17] I think he's terrible.

[15:18] I don't know why he hit me

[15:19] and I didn't do anything to him to deserve that.

[15:21] (mumbles)

[15:23] So I am just, I am,

[15:25] there's no forgiveness in that.

[15:27] So when people say they want forgiveness

[15:29] in their life, it's, you know,

[15:34] it's, really?

[15:36] Really?

[15:36] Because we think if we're not in fear

[15:38] we're not protected and our physical bodies

[15:40] are at stake.

[15:42] And mind is not body, so work with the mind

[15:45] and the body will follow.

[15:48] - Wonderful.

[15:49] That's the cause, right?

[15:51] The mind is always the cause.

[15:52] - Mind is cause, body's effect.

[15:55] - Yes.

[15:55] - Mind is cause, enemy is effect.

[16:00] - And story and personality and taking it personal

[16:05] and all the (laughs)

[16:08] - All the...

[16:10] - All the whole shebang.

[16:12] - And the whole thing.

[16:14] If I see you as an enemy,

[16:17] I am insane.

[16:21] And fear is insane.

[16:24] It hurts.

[16:25] It's suffering.

[16:26] And it's not as though

[16:30] we can do something about it

[16:32] when we have no way of knowing about it.

[16:37] And that's, again, you know, for me,

[16:40] I don't call it The Work for nothing.

[16:43] I had to collect my thoughts and question them

[16:45] and be completely open to the answers for it to work.

[16:51] They don't work if we're not open to the answers.

[16:55] And it takes stillness.

[16:57] When we ask, is it true?

[16:59] For example, we need to sit and get still and meditate

[17:03] on that question, to see what meets it.

[17:07] And what meets it is big medicine.

[17:11] It will shift you right out of identity.

[17:18] - Oh, wow.

[17:21] Thank you.

[17:23] So it's...

[17:26] This meeting,

[17:28] the question, the issue, or whatever,

[17:31] the story.

[17:33] Let's say what heals it is not putting up the question

[17:39] is what is the connection or it's the meeting,

[17:42] what meets it, which is the mind.

[17:44] - Yes, what meets the question

[17:47] is the answer to the question.

[17:49] - Oh my God.

[17:51] Okay.

[17:52] I think I haven't understood the work before.

[17:57] I think I'm getting closer.

[17:59] Thank you.

[18:00] - You're welcome.

[18:02] - It's deep.

[18:04] - Yes, it is.

[18:05] - Thanks.

[18:10] I didn't want to cry, but here we are.

[18:14] It's such a relief.

[18:15] Thank you.

[18:16] - Yes.

[18:17] Yes, it is.

[18:20] - Because then you have access to what is true.

[18:28] Oh.

[18:32] (sighs)

[18:34] Thank you.

[18:41] - It's beautiful.

[18:42] These beautiful moments of recognition.

[18:47] The beautiful self.

[18:57] - And now I'm just realizing there...

[19:04] If you call it forgiveness

[19:05] or whatever you wanna call it,

[19:08] there's no other way.

[19:10] If you don't get access to that,

[19:13] how can you, I mean, not stay in the story?

[19:18] If there isn't a real and better alternative,

[19:23] how can you not stay there and not keep suffering?

[19:27] - That's why we don't know how to end war in the world.

[19:33] And this is the end of war in the world.

[19:36] You see, this is the end of war in my world.

[19:42] And this invitation that you have dropped into

[19:46] so deeply, that's the beginning of the end of the war.

[19:51] We could say it is the end of the war in you,

[19:54] just now.

[19:57] Just this beautiful,

[20:00] beautiful gift of now.

[20:17] Beautiful man, good man.

[20:20] And...

[20:25] I love...

[20:27] The...

[20:30] The way that you...

[20:33] Open

[20:35] so...

[20:38] So childlike, so innocently.

[20:41] Knowing that an audience is going to witness this.

[20:45] We have much in common.

[20:57] It's a gift,

[21:01] this self.

[21:05] This recognition.

[21:07] It's...

[21:11] It's a gift.

[21:13] The tears are just a part of the leaving.

[21:17] - Oh yeah, I know.

[21:19] Yeah.

[21:21] - It's beautiful.

[21:26] And they're only like the physical

[21:30] evidence of the recognition

[21:34] we experience inside.

[21:37] - Yeah.

[21:38] - Like this flower opening.

[21:40] The petals falling, it's so beautiful.

[21:59] (laughter)

[22:19] - Thank you.

[22:21] (laughs)

[22:29] I...

[22:32] I just said to my wife,

[22:34] I do have

[22:36] even more informal questions

[22:39] for you.

[22:40] Do you mind if I...

[22:41] - Of course not.

[22:43] And of course I can say, I don't know.

[22:45] Ask those questions and we'll find out.

[22:47] - Exactly.

[22:49] You can always say no.

[22:51] - And who knows the future?

[22:58] - Yeah, exactly.

[23:00] Can I tell you something?

[23:01] Pbht!

[23:03] (laughter)

[23:06] - Yeah, I get it.

[23:08] (laughter)

[23:13] - I read a little bit about your story,

[23:15] and when you were,

[23:18] like when you hit rock bottom,

[23:21] and saw the cockroach.

[23:24] I am very much interested in,

[23:28] did you do something

[23:34] that you could connect with your waking up?

[23:38] Did you, was something going on in your mind?

[23:42] - I was just in this dead sleep.

[23:46] And many years of depression.

[23:49] And in this dead sleep I was woken,

[23:54] or awakened, so suddenly,

[23:57] that mind didn't have an opportunity

[24:01] to identify as object.

[24:05] As body.

[24:07] As object.

[24:08] So, without identification...

[24:16] I mean that was the experience.

[24:19] And then I experienced

[24:23] the mind happening,

[24:26] and all of a sudden there was sky and windows

[24:31] and walls and ceiling.

[24:35] And but it still didn't connect

[24:39] as this physical body.

[24:42] It...

[24:46] It wasn't a part of it.

[24:52] But then as I

[24:55] would say,

[24:56] it began to just laugh.

[25:01] Because it saw how the entire,

[25:03] how my world was created.

[25:07] It's nothing until it's named,

[25:10] and then it's still nothing

[25:13] until you believe that name.

[25:16] And then the object becomes the apparent real.

[25:21] So and then it,

[25:25] in that laughter,

[25:26] eventually just, it stood up.

[25:29] It walked out of the room into a back room

[25:32] and looked into the mirror.

[25:35] And then it connected,

[25:37] you know, the eyes.

[25:39] I do this at the school for the work.

[25:42] It's like something happened.

[25:44] The eyes locked.

[25:45] An it was a kind of identification

[25:52] that was so subtle, so gentle,

[25:56] so ineffective and entirely effective.

[26:02] And The Work was born on that floor.

[26:06] I saw that nothing was true.

[26:10] And I saw how I reacted when I believed

[26:12] that thought...

[26:13] How do you react what happens when you believe

[26:14] the thought?

[26:16] I saw the entire world created in that moment.

[26:18] And who would I be without it

[26:21] is me prior to mind identifying.

[26:27] Objects, window, floor, ceiling.

[26:30] And then the opposites are true.

[26:35] And so that enabled...

[26:38] As I say, as true or truer.

[26:40] But it's all left up to the mind to determine.

[26:44] So it gave me a way

[26:49] to live in the world

[26:52] without ever living in the world again.

[26:55] And so those, for people who have really

[26:59] deep experiences, and I'm sure people have had

[27:02] at least experiences,

[27:05] experiences at least as deep as that.

[27:09] It's just that I had The Work,

[27:11] so it was maintained,

[27:13] it was nurtured,

[27:17] it's alive, this inquiry is alive in me

[27:19] as it is in many people today.

[27:22] - So you did apply it afterwards.

[27:24] - Oh, it's alive, it's alive.

[27:28] Like if you ask me my name,

[27:32] I say Byron Katie, inside of me

[27:35] it's like, Byron Katie?

[27:38] Or I'd like a drink of water.

[27:41] It's like, I want a drink of water?

[27:44] In other words, everything just naturally ends

[27:46] in a question mark.

[27:50] The questioning mind.

[27:54] - Wow.

[27:56] Wonderful.

[27:56] - And people that...

[28:00] Invite this work into their meditation practice,

[28:05] eventually it becomes a part of their mind as well,

[28:10] I've noticed.

[28:12] Just automatic.

[28:13] But it's nurtured, it is a practice.

[28:17] Until finally it takes hold of us.

[28:21] But that takes a very open mind to,

[28:24] or a very vulnerable.

[28:28] You know, it's a practice.

[28:31] It's a meditative practice,

[28:32] and it does take stillness.

[28:39] - That's I would say that's discipline

[28:41] in the best sense.

[28:43] - Yes, it's fascinating.

[28:45] It's fascinating.

[28:47] It's not about emptying the mind.

[28:49] It's about allowing, surrendering to the mind

[28:52] and just, just, just

[28:56] offering up and is it true to the mind

[29:00] that is childlike enough to entertain it?

[29:04] - Mm.

[29:30] - Good spending time with you.

[29:32] - Likewise.

[29:34] - Thank you, Armin.

[29:36] - Thank you.

[29:37] And best wishes from Switzerland,

[29:41] Germany, Austria.

[29:44] - Feels like home.

[29:46] (laughter)

[29:48] - By the way, I drove through Barstow.

[29:51] - Oh, did you?

[29:53] - A year ago.

[29:54] Yes, we had to think about you so hard.

[29:57] - Oh my gosh.

[29:58] You know, I donated,

[30:01] there were five houses there.

[30:04] One, two, three.

[30:05] There were five houses there,

[30:07] and when I moved the Center...

[30:13] I donated that property,

[30:17] that entire thing to...

[30:23] Some people who,

[30:26] it was actually an agency that,

[30:29] I don't know why I'm telling you this.

[30:31] I guess just because I love visiting Barstow again.

[30:35] But to an organization that took in

[30:43] young mothers that had been abused

[30:48] and were afraid for their lives.

[30:50] So it was like a place where they could be,

[30:53] learn an occupation,

[30:54] learn how to take care of their children.

[30:56] So there were cribs in every room

[30:59] where we used to work and sleep and love and eat.

[31:04] And it was just so beautiful.

[31:07] So they could go out and get jobs

[31:09] and care for their babes.

[31:13] Then eventually that Center turned into a...

[31:23] An alcohol and drug rehab place as well.

[31:28] And I mean, went from one to the other.

[31:32] Anyway, I love that place.

[31:37] (laughter)

[31:40] - A nice symbol for some of your biography.

[31:44] - Yeah.

[31:45] Oh, very much so.

[31:46] - Yeah.

[31:49] Well, thank you so much for your time,

[31:52] for your presence, for your wisdom.

[31:55] And for the connection.

[31:58] Katie, and...

[32:00] - Thank you.

[32:01] And it's a privilege.

[32:03] And be well, and thank you for the good you're doing,

[32:06] Armin.

[32:07] - Thank you.

[32:08] You too.

[32:09] Bye.

Byron Katie
AutorByron Katie

American author and teacher of "The Work" — a method of self-inquiry consisting of four questions (Is it true? Can you absolutely know it's true? How do you react when you believe…

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